Are Subarus Worth the Investment for Performance and Reliability?

[Kurdt]

Well yeah the supercharging helps but the BMW M5 is normally aspirated (I think) and that pulls 507 bhp from 5 litres capacity. I'd imagine the corvette costs a fair bit in fuel. The new honda civic has improved its performance and power by taking the rev line up to 10,000 revs and many of the companies involved in formula 1 are taking similar steps. Should be interesting to see what can happen.

The Caparo T1 coming out very soon has a normally aspirated 2.4 v8 producing 500bhp that's been developed from F1 technology. Of course this car is wildly expensive as well but I love the engineering miracles at play.

 

[Stingray]

Well yeah the supercharging helps but the BMW M5 is normally aspirated (I think) and that pulls 507 bhp from 5 litres capacity. I'd imagine the corvette costs a fair bit in fuel. The new honda civic has improved its performance and power by taking the rev line up to 10,000 revs and many of the companies involved in formula 1 are taking similar steps. Should be interesting to see what can happen.

Quoting power/liter is really pointless. The Z06 Corvette is actually the most fuel efficient car in its performance class.

Displacement also has little correlation to physical size. Pushrods are very efficient at saving space. For example, the Z06 engine weighs less than the 5 liter V10 in the M5. It even weighs less than the 3.6 liter flat-6 in a 993 turbo (I don't know about the newer ones).

Also, all performance cars try to maximize power by increasing revs. If you can maintain torque and reliability at higher speeds, you automatically get more power. That's nothing new. There are just a lot of tradeoffs that have to be dealt with in practice. By the way, no stock Civic (or any other production car) revs to 10k.

 

[Andy]

I was told by someone that i work with that the Honda Integra type R (previous model) red lined at 8,500rpm. I would take that as being fact unless i have misheard him because he used to own one and used to work in a honda dealership.

 

[Kurdt]

Quoting power/liter is really pointless. The Z06 Corvette is actually the most fuel efficient car in its performance class.

Displacement also has little correlation to physical size. Pushrods are very efficient at saving space. For example, the Z06 engine weighs less than the 5 liter V10 in the M5. It even weighs less than the 3.6 liter flat-6 in a 993 turbo (I don't know about the newer ones).

Also, all performance cars try to maximize power by increasing revs. If you can maintain torque and reliability at higher speeds, you automatically get more power. That's nothing new. There are just a lot of tradeoffs that have to be dealt with in practice. By the way, no stock Civic (or any other production car) revs to 10k.

Well I'm a fool when it comes to knowing how the engines actually work so that's all I like to look at There are no production cars that rev to 10k revs but the new civic type-r concept has been rumoured to be getting a tweaking to 10k revs while the caparo T1 which is to be produced revs at 10 500 rpm perhaps I should have used a better wording so as to not infer that I was talking of a currently produced car.

Looks a nice car anyway for the price.

 

[rcgldr]

No stock Civic (or any other production car) revs to 10k.

The first year S2000 came close, 9000 rpm with a 2.0 4 cylinder engine, but now it's a 2.2 liter engine that revs to 8000 rpm, both make about 240hp. The new Honda Civic puts out 160hp at 6500 rpm, so the redline is probably a bit over 7000 rpm.

The Z06 engine, a V8 with 7.0 liters (427.6 in^2) revs to a pretty impressive 7,000 rpm, using light motorcycle like pistons that look more like thin disks than a normal piston.

Motorcycle engines rev high, 1.0 liter engines run over 13,000 rpm. The Suzuki Hayabusa engine, which is used in some kit cars, is a 1.3 liter engine that revs to 11,000 rpm. The Kawasaki ZX14 engine is a bit bigger, 1.35 liter, and still revs to 11,000 rpm (and I'm sure that these will end up in kit cars as well).

Some of the new V8 F1 race car engines rev around 19,000 rpm.

 

[Andy]

It won't be long until honda break the 10,000 rpm barrier.

If i remember rightly the BMW engine in the williams F1 car broke the 20,000 rpm barrier a few years ago using a V10, but that was before theY changed the rules on the technical side of F1.

 

[Kurdt]

Last weekend the mercedes benz in the mclaren broke 20 000rpm for the V8.

 

[chroot]

It isn't so much a "barrier" as it is a design decision. If you take an S2000 and mechanically force it above about 10,500 rpm, its pistons will hit its valves and it will self-destruct. The fuel limiter kicks in at 9k rpm, a decent safety margin below true mechanical redline.

The engine has to be designed from the start to support the timing of 10k+ rpm. You cannot "tweak it" past that design boundary.

- Warren

 

[rcgldr]

Integra type R - 195 horspower @ 8000 rpm, redline is 8400 rpm.

> It won't be long until honda break the 10,000 rpm barrier.

In their motorcycles they already do. But high revs were an issue for the S2000, so they increased displacement and lowered rev limit from 9000 to 8000.

Racing version of these cars don't have to run that many miles before engine rebuilds, so they often run the smaller engines past 10,000 rpm. As prevously posted, the F1 V8 engines are pushing 19,000 rpm, and get to 20,000 rpm for some manufacturers.

A 500 in^3 (8.19 liter) drag racing pro stock engine revs to 10,000 rpm, but these engines life times are measured in revolutions, a rebuild after each quarter mile run. Ditto with top fuel dragsters, also limited to 500 in^3, making over 6000 hp, rev limited to 8400 rpm.

 

[Kurdt]

I wasn't talking about tweaking as in modifying an existing engine I meant tweak as in whole new engine design. I do realize that pushing something beyond its design capability will destroy it in most cases. Anyway there will soon be a 10k+ rpm vehicle on the market in the form of the caparo T1 certainly and the honda civic type R concept is supposed to be having a new engine designed that will hit just about 10k revs.

The caparo T1 can be seen at its website here:

www.caparo-t1.com/[/URL]

along with its relevant specs.

As F1 tecnology pushes the boundaries in the racing field its also allowed higher revving engines to be built for performance road cars that have lifetimes that are no longer measured in 4 figure miles or revolutions. Of course they will not go as high as the race engines but you can't expect something on the limit of technological expertise to have a long lifetime.

 

[rcgldr]

you can't expect something on the limit of technological expertise to have a long lifetime.

Motorcycles are pretty close though, and they're next to bulletproof, as they get abused more than most cars. You can pretty much take a stock motocycle, switch to DOT tires or slicks, maybe do some external mods, like exhaust, and go racing. The bikes don't blow up, in spite of the very high rpms they run at, and serious track use.

 

[rcgldr]

Getting back on topic, I think the issue of quality varies from model to model, more than it does from brand to brand, mostly because the different models are built in different factories.

If I had to choose a "worst" brand, it would probably be Jaguar, where the manufacturing process is very dated. I read a recent article about a new executive at Ford dealing with this. For example, the tolerances on the rear quarter panels allows them to vary by as much as 1/4 inch, so the body parts have to be hand matched and/or post machined to make them fit.

Looking at that Top Gear review of the Ford pickup truck the dashboard is very ill fitted. However other cars made with the Ford brand are build with good manufacturing processes with tight tolerances.

A co-worker had a Honda Accord, which are normally reliable cars, but it had recurrent ECU problems requiring two replacements.

If I lived in Europe, I probably wouldn't buy a USA car as there is an apparently very high tariff. The Z06 I bought cost about $70k (US) here in the USA, but costs about $109k(US, 60,000 pounds) in the UK.

 

[turbo]

Getting back on topic, I think the issue of quality varies from model to model, more than it does from brand to brand, mostly because the different models are built in different factories.

It might be interesting to note that when Ford closed its Marysville OH plant, Honda bought it and started producing the Accord there. The Accord was designed for the American market and is not produced in Japan. It quickly became the most popular car in the US, due to its efficiency and reliability and it outsold the Ford Taurus consistently until Ford started buying its own Tauruses in bulk and leasing them to rental companies, counting them as if they were retail sales. I have had a Ford Taurus, an LTD, and an Aerostar as company cars, and I can tell you that I will never own a Ford vehicle after experiencing all the problems that I ran into with these relatively-new vehicles. If I was purchasing fleet vehicles, I would choose the Toyota Camry, the Honda Accord, and the Subaru Legacy or Forester (especially for sales/technical service in northern climates). For anybody looking to buy a car, I suggest you visit Cartalk http://www.cartalk.com/ and pay attention. The Camry and Accord are their top picks for reliability and longevity.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

My first real car was a 240Z, which was Datsun back then, and for the last 600,000 miles+ we've been exclusively Toyota. There is no doubt in my mind that Toyota and Honda are head and shoulders above the rest for reasonably sized vehicles.

We have always had fewer car problems than most people we know. In over twenty years, the most extensive repair made to any car was for a leaky front crank seal. After that, two heater fans, one window, and otherwise, just normal maintenance. We sold the first one running with over 300,000 hard miles on it.

I recently learned that our relatively large Toyota gets better mileage than my parent's small Saturn.

 

[gravenewworld]

Would I buy an American car like this

http://www.calcruisingauctions.com/goodguys/P1010045.jpg

or this

http://library.thinkquest.org/04apr/01229/66cobra-10965-A.jpg






HELL YES.

 

[FredGarvin]

That Camaro is nice. Who picked out those god awful rims though?

 

[Andy]

Apart from the engine that AC cobra is a British car. Thats assuming that the car in the picture is a Shelby cobra and not the standard cobra which used a straight six bristol engine.

 

[rcgldr]

Hmm, I didn't realize that some of the import cars had so much hidden potential performance just waiting to be unlocked until I read the article below from a sports car magazine forum. It explains how to shave 2 seconds off the ET of a econobox to get it into the 14's, with virtually no cost modifications, a very informative thread, and a demonstration of thinking outside of the econobox.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=776885

 

[J77]

Can you still get insurance once you start fiddling around with imports tho'?

I see a lot of kids driving around in, eg. Skylines, these days, but have heard that if you crash them, you may as well buy a new one instead of paying the massive insurance.

 

[Anttech]

Apart from the engine that AC cobra is a British car. Thats assuming that the car in the picture is a Shelby cobra and not the standard cobra which used a straight six bristol engine.

I was about to say...

Anyway

The only American car I would buy would be a ford, either the new GT or old one, or perhaps a mustang (preferably one made in the 60's).

 

[Andy]

I wouldn't buy an american car but i do love the sound of those big V8's even if the are terribly inefficient. If i had money to burn i would probably do what Mr Shelby done and stick a big American engine in a small british sports car (if there's any left).

 

[999]

go check out the new all electric Tesla car ... http://www.teslamotors.com

 

[rcgldr]

modding an import for better 1/4 mile time:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=776885

Can you still get insurance once you start fiddling around with imports tho'?

Apparently you didn't read that thread, it's actually pretty funny, as some real car magazine butchered a Nissan Sentra. The mods included removing the exhaust, removing the hood, cutting the intake filter in half and duct taping it up high to get ram air effect. Removing all accessories, the radiator fans, (it's only going to run 1/4 mile), then smashing or cutting off interior and exterior body parts until there was just a shell / framework left.

There are a series of pictures and the 1/4 ET after each "state" of modification, showing the improvement from 16+ seconds to 14.3 seconds. For "styling" and the last bit of weight removal, they cut off the hood.

 

[J77]

Apparently you didn't read that thread

In general tho', can you get US insurance companies to insure your Japanese import?

 

[rcgldr]

In general tho', can you get US insurance companies to insure your Japanese import?

Yes. In the context I was using the term "import", I was referring to Japanese influenced style type of cars, even the ones sold locally and not necessarily imported for a consumer. These include the econoboxes (Honda Civic, Volkswagen GTI), sedans like an Acura or Infinity, and the sportier cars like the Honda S2000. Generally the term "import" isn't used for SUVs (FX56), trucks, crossovers (FX35), or vans.

High end sports cars are normally termed "exotics", like Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, Porsche 911, Porsche Carerra GT, and Acura NSX (although at only 290hp the NSX is marginal).

"muscle" cars are the Camaro, Mustang, and Trans-Am, also called "pony" cars since they were similar to the Mustangs at one time. Older muscle cars include Charger, Challenger, Barracuda, and Javelin.

Corvettes, especially the new 505hp Z06 are sort of in a class by themselves. The old ones didn't handle well, but the new Z06 is very good at a race track.

427 Cobras are another unique car.

 

[Curious3141]

turbo, yep, Subaru's have a great reputation. That's what I'm looking into most seriously for my next car. I prefer the Impreza over the Legacy, but need to find more people who have owned one

Well, ask me, I've owned two.

I love Subarus. My current car is a MY05 2 liter WRX (that's the Impreza turbo). It's moderately modified and pushing out close to 340 hp (up from the 227 hp stock), very quick yet very reliable. Previously, I've owned the bugeye version of the WRX. These are great daily drivers and weekend racers (drag strip, circuit, autoX) if you're into that sort of thing.

My family has also previously owned a cute little Subaru Viki, also very reliable and practical (but of course it wasn't a performance car).

I can't quite give you any personal insight into the handling of the car on snow (living in Singapore), but it handles *beautifully* on rain slick roads. And I hear from my pals in the US that they're totally pleased with the handling on winter roads.

You should come over to www.wrxfanatics.com[/URL] and join up, we're a nice friendly community of Scooby owners (I'm a mod there). Also check out NASIOC, it's excellent for technical info. But here's the bottom line : you won't regret buying a Subaru. :approve: