Are there unverifiable assertions about probabilities

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of probabilities in quantum mechanics (QM) and the implications of obtaining non-rational probabilities, such as ##1/\sqrt{2}##. Participants explore whether such probabilities can be considered real if they cannot be verified through finite experimental results, and they touch upon philosophical considerations regarding realism and idealizations in models.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that a probability of ##1/\sqrt{2}## from QM cannot be verified since experiments yield only rational numbers with finite digits.
  • Others question whether this implies that such a theory cannot be real, suggesting it would require an everlasting experiment for verification.
  • A participant introduces the idea that all models are idealizations and argues that the real world is discrete, contrasting with the notion of fuzzy reality.
  • Another participant asserts that predictions in theories do not need to be accurate to infinite precision, except in pure mathematics.
  • A hypothetical example involving reindeer is presented to illustrate that a theory's verification may depend on an infinite number of trials, raising questions about the nature of empirical evidence.
  • There is a challenge regarding whether the reindeer theory's outcome is conditioned on specific factors, such as the presence of a red nose.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of non-rational probabilities and the nature of reality in relation to theories. There is no consensus on whether such probabilities undermine the reality of the theories in question.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the verification of probabilities and the dependence on definitions of reality and idealization in models. The discussion remains open-ended regarding the philosophical implications of these points.

jk22
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Suppose we obtain a probability of ##1/\sqrt{2}## from QM for example.
This will be never verifiable since experiments can only give rational numbers even more : finite digits.

Does this mean that such a theory cannot be real in some sense since it would need an everlasting expetiment ?

Are there any attempts or approaches to get only rational numbers from the theory ?
 
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jk22 said:
Suppose we obtain a probability of ##1/\sqrt{2}## from QM for example.
This will be never verifiable since experiments can only give rational numbers even more : finite digits.

Does this mean that such a theory cannot be real in some sense since it would need an everlasting expetiment ?

Are there any attempts or approaches to get only rational numbers from the theory ?
Consider ##\pi ## instead:


Now we have eliminated any "reality" of the "theory", because all we have used is a circle. From this point on you can eternally talk about realism, Plato and other philosophies. The mathematical resp. physical essence is, that we cannot actually create a circle, we can only come as close as we want to, depending on the effort we put in. Under the electron microscope, however, ...

Our models are all idealizations. The real world is discrete!
 
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fresh_42 said:
The real world is discrete!
No. It is fuzzy!
jk22 said:
Suppose we obtain a probability of ##1/\sqrt{2}## from QM for example.
This will be never verifiable since experiments can only give rational numbers even more : finite digits.

Does this mean that such a theory cannot be real in some sense since it would need an everlasting experiment ?
No. One never expects predictions to be accurate to infinite precision - except in pure mathematics!
 
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jk22 said:
Does this mean that such a theory cannot be real in some sense since it would need an everlasting expetiment ?

What theory doesn't?

I have a theory that reindeer can't fly. I gather a hundred reindeer, and push them off my roof to their deaths. All I have shown is that these hundred reindeer can't (or at least didn't) fly. What about #101? Or #1001? Or #100000000000001?
 
Vanadium 50 said:
What theory doesn't?

I have a theory that reindeer can't fly. I gather a hundred reindeer, and push them off my roof to their deaths. All I have shown is that these hundred reindeer can't (or at least didn't) fly. What about #101? Or #1001? Or #100000000000001?
Was this conditioned on the presence of a red nose?
 

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