Are we training too many physicists?

[-Dragoon-]

It is in no way, shape, or form unreasonable to want to study something (that one does for over a decade in physics) and attempt to acquire gainful employment doing that thing. None of what you wrote defeated my point btw; whether your discipline is academic or otherwise, one should be concerned about your job prospects in your discipline or in disciplines where you can leeway your skills. I don't know why this idea that people in academic disciplines shouldn't be concerned with money is gaining so much popularity here or anywhere; the very notion is so stupid that its almost offensive.

I never claimed that it is unreasonable to want to study and attempt to acquire gainful employment doing it. Rather, all I'm saying is one needs a different motivation than job prospects to get through a physics graduate program because the prospects are incredibly weak and will only continue to dwindle with time. You still have yet to explain why an individual whose primary or at least one of their main concerns is job prospects should study physics. There are much easier ways to end up in positions that physicists would end up in with much less time and work as well as hassle breaking into the industry than pursuing physics. Also, from the looks of it, these industries are beginning to lock physicists out, which will only make it an even more terrible idea to study physics if one is seriously concerned about job prospects.

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

So in a nutshell, yes, we are training too many physicists. College is too expensive to take a chance on a major that might not have a return. The world does not care how talented you are or how passionate you are. No jobs = no work.

If everyone thought like you did, we'd have very few classical musicians. We wouldn't have many physicists. We'd have no English professors. And Mathematics research would be right out. And popular astrophysicists like Neil DeGrasse Tyson would not exist. Yes, someone does get those coveted positions. It requires a degree of dedication that most will not have. But some do.

You will only find out if you try. This requires a degree of self awareness that many do not have. Many will fail. But who are we to tell people what they should or shouldn't study? We only know what worked for us.

When I began study of Electrical Engineering, my take on it was that I wanted to do it no matter what. As long as I could afford a living to pay back the loans, I'd be okay. It turns out that I did reasonably well. But going into this, I had no idea whether I'd succeed at it or not. A surprising number of my classmates quit. And literally half of the remaining class didn't graduate because their scholarships from cold war defense contracts evaporated when the contracts ended.

We really don't know what the future will hold. Study what fascinates you. If you're realistic, flexible, and hard working, you'll make something of yourself.

 

[Arsenic&Lace]

The argument that industry is losing interest in physics PhD's is complete rubbish, at least as far as more applied physics is concerned. I'm in computational biophysics as an undergrad and will be continuing in the subject for my PhD, and none of the faculty who I interviewed with could produce a graduate who was underemployed or unemployed after their PhD or post doc.

I do agree that getting a PhD so you can become a professional physicist is not a very good idea for many reasons, one of which of course are the job prospects in academia. The only real motivation should be to do physics, which getting into a program and not failing the quals guarantees that you can spend 5 years or so at least doing, plus 2-4 more if you feel like doing post docs. It should take an awful lot of stress off your shoulders not to tie all of your happiness to doing physics as a professor.

 

[HuskyNamedNala]

If everyone thought like you did, we'd have very few classical musicians. We wouldn't have many physicists. We'd have no English professors. And Mathematics research would be right out. And popular astrophysicists like Neil DeGrasse Tyson would not exist. Yes, someone does get those coveted positions. It requires a degree of dedication that most will not have. But some do.

You will only find out if you try. This requires a degree of self awareness that many do not have. Many will fail. But who are we to tell people what they should or shouldn't study? We only know what worked for us.

When I began study of Electrical Engineering, my take on it was that I wanted to do it no matter what. As long as I could afford a living to pay back the loans, I'd be okay. It turns out that I did reasonably well. But going into this, I had no idea whether I'd succeed at it or not. A surprising number of my classmates quit. And literally half of the remaining class didn't graduate because their scholarships from cold war defense contracts evaporated when the contracts ended.

We really don't know what the future will hold. Study what fascinates you. If you're realistic, flexible, and hard working, you'll make something of yourself.

The key right here is "When I began study of Electrical Engineering, my take on it was that I wanted to do it no matter what. As long as I could afford a living to pay back the loans".

How much was education when you went to school? I have enough debt where, unless I lay out over $1000 a month, I won't be able to pay it back in less than 5 years. The only way I could pull that off is if I did not own a car and lived with my parents. Do I want to be 30 and living with mom and dad for the sake of "education", no, I never would have set foot in school.

I see where you are coming from though. I think your values reflect an old mentality that was true even as early as 20-25 years ago. I am absolutely pissed off that the older generation let this happen. Allowing 16-18 year olds take out loans worth more than luxury cars with dubious interest rates and policies, knowing the cost of education was rising rapidly. Yes, an education was a great ticket to upward mobility. Now, I have my doubts.

So, I think my generation (the..millennials) has a responsibility to tell people like the OP the truth: The USA is no place for college education unless you obtain a high paying job or have a benefactor. If you want to get a physics degree, great, do what you love, but dual major with something marketable, because the people calling the shots for jobs are not terribly bright or informed. They don't see "Oh he is a physicist, he must have good time management and analytical skills" they see "Oh, he is a physicist, he doesn't have any skills he can contribute."

And don't get me wrong, I want to get a PhD BADLY. I think about it everyday. But I read nothing but bad stories. Our education system is broken in the US. Don't be a sucker a give the lenders your money.

 

[Arsenic&Lace]

^^Precisely why I'm glad I went to a community college for 2 years, then lived with my parents and went to the local state school, graduating debt free. People really need to go where the money is. I'm sorry to hear about your situation.

 

[HuskyNamedNala]

Oh yeah, I think the OP needs to research why schools are recruiting so heavily
(hint:$).

Even Cooper Union has cut its scholarships. Cooper Union, fyi, was known for its policy of making education free to all students. Every student got a $20000 scholarship to cover tuition, but they were on their own for room and board.

 

[Dale]

Paused for moderation

Edit: we will leave it closed since it has veered off from the original topic about the AIP recruitment efforts and onto broader economic complaints.