Atom Construction: Electrons & Protons

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    Atom Construction
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of electrons and protons within atoms, particularly focusing on the energy levels of electrons and the interactions between protons in the nucleus. It touches on quantum mechanics, atomic structure, and the forces at play within an atom.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that an electron in the lowest energy level cannot fall into the nucleus because it lacks the energy to do so, while higher-level electrons can transition to lower levels if space permits.
  • Another participant describes the quantum mechanical model of an atom, explaining that the lowest energy state corresponds to a specific eigen-state of the Hamiltonian, indicating that the electron is not permanently in the nucleus.
  • A request for simplification is made by a participant who seeks a more accessible explanation of the concepts discussed, particularly regarding the second part of the initial question.
  • A later reply emphasizes the importance of solving the Schrödinger equation for understanding atomic energy levels and notes that protons, being fermions, cannot occupy the same state and are repelled by each other due to their positive charge.
  • Another participant corrects a claim about protons being leptons, clarifying that protons are hadrons made of quarks, while electrons are leptons that do not interact via the strong nuclear force.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of protons and electrons, with some confusion regarding their classifications. There is no consensus on the initial questions posed, and multiple competing explanations are present.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the energy transitions of electrons and the interactions of protons, as well as the implications of quantum mechanics on atomic structure.

drl
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Am I right to say that an electron in the lowest level of an atom cannot fall into the nucleus because to do so requires it to give up energy in the process and it . does not possesses the energy at this atomic level.Electrons in higher levels can give up energy and fall to a lower level if there is room for them.
Now does a similar effect take place in the 28th proton of an iron atom to prevent it from combining with another proton to increase its atomic number so that in order to do so energy must be added instead of being given off.
 
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The way we model things quantum-mechanically, you have (for the system that models an isolated atom, or an electron in an isolated atom) a Hamiltonian (a Self Adjoint Operator on a Hilbert Space, that is bounded from below), and there is one state of the system (eigen-state that corresponds to the minimum eigen-value of the Hamiltonian) that is the state of the system with lowest energy, (there is no way for the system to "transition" to a state of lower energy). In this state, the square of the modulus of the wavefunction is used to define "the orbitals" (regions of 3d-space with a probability-density above some threshold value, for the electron to be in), that "shows" you that the electron "is not permanently in the nucleus".
 
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I appreciate your time and effort .Can you get it down to dummy level if possible and what is the answer to the 2nd part of my question?
 
This is an I level thread. You should have solved the Schrödinger equation for a hydrogen atom. It has a lowest energy level as one of its solutions. It can't go lower than that. This is a general feature of all such systems eg atoms, molecules, etc, and although its not an area I am that familiar with, even nuclei. Also remember protons are leptons, and like all leptons are fermions so you can not have two protons in the same state. Even simpler than that protons being positively charged repel each other so will be repelled by other atoms. What keeps the nucleus together is the strong nuclear force which is short ranged. You need to overcome the long range EM force in the other atom for the short range strong force to have an effect.

Thanks
Bill
 
Last edited:
bhobba said:
remember protons are leptons

Correction: protons are hadrons, made of quarks. Electrons are leptons. Leptons don't respond to the strong nuclear force; hadrons (and mesons, which are also made of quarks) do.
 

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