Balls in a box shaking experiment

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    Balls Box Experiment
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around calculating the probability of finding a specific number of green and red balls in the left half of a box after shaking it. The context includes theoretical considerations of probability distributions and assumptions about the independence of ball placements.

Discussion Character

  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a formula for the probability P(G, R) based on combinatorial arrangements of balls, suggesting that it involves terms related to factorials and combinations.
  • Another participant questions the assumptions of equal likelihood and independence of ball placements, highlighting potential issues with overcrowding affecting arrangements.
  • A participant asserts that every arrangement of the balls is equally likely and confirms the assumption of independence, noting that the balls are identical except for color.
  • A later reply reiterates the initial proposal but critiques the formulation, pointing out that terms involving G and R are missing from the expression.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the assumptions regarding ball placement and the correctness of the proposed probability formula. There is no consensus on the validity of the initial approach or the assumptions made.

Contextual Notes

Participants have not resolved the assumptions regarding the independence of ball placements and the implications of overcrowding. The mathematical expressions presented are subject to scrutiny and refinement.

rmjmu507
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A box contains V balls of which N_{g} are green, N_{r} are red and V-N_{g}-N_{r}=N_{b} are blue.
Now somebody shakes the box vigorously, brings it to rest and then observes the
arrangement of the balls in the box. Suppose this is repeated many times so that
probabilities of different ball configurations can be defined as frequencies of occurrence.

What is the probability, P(G, R) that there are G green balls and R red balls in the
left half of the box? (Assume G+R<V/2)

I believe this probability is equal to \Gamma(G, R)/\Gamma(total)...

In this case, I think \Gamma(G, R) would be:

\Gamma(G, R) = ((\frac{(N_g)!}{(N_g)!(V-N_r-N_b)!})^2)((\frac{(N_r)!}{(N_r)!(V-N_g-N_b)!})^2)((\frac{V}{2}!)^2)

And \Gamma(total) is V!.

Does this look right? In the first expression, the first term represents the number of ways to select which green balls are on the left hand side times the number of ways to select which red balls are on the left hand side, the second term represents the number of ways to select which red balls are on the left hand side times the number of ways to select which green balls are on the left hand side, and the third term represents the number of ways to arrange V/2 balls on the LHS times the number of ways to arrange V/2 balls on the RHS.

Am I on the right track?
 
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You need to clarify. Do you assume that each ball is equally likely to end up on the left or the right half of the box, and that the final positions of the balls are independent (which might NOT be a reasonable assumption since if part of the box gets too crowded, it may force balls into the other part!)?
 
every arrangement of the balls is equally likely to occur. in other words, every arrangement will occur with equal frequency.

and yes, independence is assumed. the balls are identical except for their color
 
rmjmu507 said:
A box contains V balls of which N_{g} are green, N_{r} are red and V-N_{g}-N_{r}=N_{b} are blue.
Now somebody shakes the box vigorously, brings it to rest and then observes the
arrangement of the balls in the box. Suppose this is repeated many times so that
probabilities of different ball configurations can be defined as frequencies of occurrence.

What is the probability, P(G, R) that there are G green balls and R red balls in the
left half of the box? (Assume G+R<V/2)

I believe this probability is equal to \Gamma(G, R)/\Gamma(total)...

In this case, I think \Gamma(G, R) would be:

\Gamma(G, R) = ((\frac{(N_g)!}{(N_g)!(V-N_r-N_b)!})^2)((\frac{(N_r)!}{(N_r)!(V-N_g-N_b)!})^2)((\frac{V}{2}!)^2)

And \Gamma(total) is V!.

Does this look right? In the first expression, the first term represents the number of ways to select which green balls are on the left hand side times the number of ways to select which red balls are on the left hand side, the second term represents the number of ways to select which red balls are on the left hand side times the number of ways to select which green balls are on the left hand side, and the third term represents the number of ways to arrange V/2 balls on the LHS times the number of ways to arrange V/2 balls on the RHS.

Am I on the right track?
None of your below-the-line terms look right. What happened to G and R?
I'd expect to see terms like (Ng C G), etc.
 

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