Banks Bundled Bad Debt, Bet Against It and Won

[nismaratwork]

That sounds a bit like a Charlie Sheen quote. Do you honestly believe the norm in the investment banking world is working under the influence?

If you include improper use of prescribed drugs, and as I mentioned, alcohol... yeah you bet your butt.

Beyond that, see edward's post.

edit: I note you said WORKING under the influence... I didn't say that they came to work in a terrible state; and why would they? Remember, if you don't care about your health, you can take Provigil, benzodiazapines, antidepressents, and a hypnotic sleep aid... all at once. It's overdose that kills in that world, but also it is cumulative damage, and drug interactions.

Again note: taking these drugs not as indicated, or not as a means of treatment, but abuse. Nothing is wrong with those drugs if used properly... athough maybe not in that combination!

 

[edward]

my bold

Does 7% of all employees represent a high rate of drug use among traders and brokers? How does 7% compare to workers in other industries and the population in general (at similar age groups).

7 percent overall failed drug tests. Do you really believe that the top producers were even given drug tests? Do the CEO and CFO take drug tests?? Do those who make the important deciscions take drug tests?

The point is the peons take mandatory drug tests.

Edit

A lawsuit filed by a former employee of Bernard Madoff's investment firm alleges rampant cocaine use and a rowdy party corporate culture. The supplemental filings to the suit also add new defendants to the civil case, including Bank of New York and JPMorgan Chase. The plaintiffs alleged that Madoff Securities was ripe with debauchery, including parties featuring topless cocktail waitresses and so much cocaine that the office was nicknamed the 'North Pole'.

http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=4432249

 

[nismaratwork]

7 percent overall failed drug tests. Do you really believe that the top producers were even given drug tests? Do the CEO and CFO take drug tests?? Do those who make the important deciscions take drug tests?

The point is the peons take mandatory drug tests.

...And the people who can't afford or don't have the wit to cheat. Remember, Charlie Sheen had a clean drug test...

edit: Can you imagine how easy it would be to get some random person to piss in a cup for you, if you have any money at all?! Ha

 

[edward]

...And the people who can't afford or don't have the wit to cheat. Remember, Charlie Sheen had a clean drug test...

edit: Can you imagine how easy it would be to get some random person to piss in a cup for you, if you have any money at all?! Ha

See edit above

 

[WhoWee]

7 percent overall failed drug tests. Do you really believe that the top producers were even given drug tests? Do the CEO and CFO take drug tests?? Do those who make the important deciscions take drug tests?

The point is the peons take mandatory drug tests.

Do you honestly believe the CEO's and CFO's are sitting in their offices snorting coke? Tell me that brokers working in remote boiler rooms are doing this and I might not question your characterization - the executive offices and the main trading floors are another story. As for making the "important decisions" - are we now talking about fund managers?

Stock brokers are salespeople - they write up sales orders - and traders make the trades they've been instructed to make on the sales orders. Decisions are made by the clients - whether it's Mrs. Jones or fund manager 789-Billion. For every seller - there is a buyer.

 

[nismaratwork]

Do you honestly believe the CEO's and CFO's are sitting in their offices snorting coke? Tell me that brokers working in remote boiler rooms are doing this and I might not question your characterization - the executive offices and the main trading floors are another story. As for making the "important decisions" - are we now talking about fund managers?

Again, where do you get these fanciful images of snorting cocaine in the office? I didn't say any of that, and I just finished making clear that very point. Guess what though, I don't want them doing on their off-time either, it has an effect that is extremely adverse when your job is to judge risk.

Stock brokers are salespeople - they write up sales orders - and traders make the trades they've been instructed to make on the sales orders. Decisions are made by the clients - whether it's Mrs. Jones or fund manager 789-Billion. For every seller - there is a buyer.

AND? We both know the convolutions of who is selling and buying, repackaging and selling again, and again. I'm not moved at all.

There's a market for suicide, rape, and drugs... the fact that buyers exist doesn't excuse sellers

 

[edward]

Do you honestly believe the CEO's and CFO's are sitting in their offices snorting coke? Tell me that brokers working in remote boiler rooms are doing this and I might not question your characterization - the executive offices and the main trading floors are another story. As for making the "important decisions" - are we now talking about fund managers?

Stock brokers are salespeople - they write up sales orders - and traders make the trades they've been instructed to make on the sales orders. Decisions are made by the clients - whether it's Mrs. Jones or fund manager 789-Billion. For every seller - there is a buyer.

It is not necessarily just Wall Street. That term covers a lot of area. The big investment banks aren't even on Wall Street.

http://www.minyanville.com/businessmarkets/articles/wall-street-cocaine-bernie-madoff-fridays/10/27/2009/id/25132

 

[WhoWee]

7 percent overall failed drug tests. Do you really believe that the top producers were even given drug tests? Do the CEO and CFO take drug tests?? Do those who make the important deciscions take drug tests?

The point is the peons take mandatory drug tests.

Edit

http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=4432249

From your (CNN) link in post 119 - my bold

"Among the allegations in the 264-page lawsuit are that during the mid-1970s, Madoff began sending employees to buy drugs for company use.

The complaint alleges that some employees and investors were aware of the drug purchases, and that BMIS [Bernard Madoff Investment Services] was known by insiders as the "North Pole" in reference to the excessive amount of cocaine use in the work place."

 

[nismaratwork]

From your (CNN) link in post 119 - my bold

"Among the allegations in the 264-page lawsuit are that during the mid-1970s, Madoff began sending employees to buy drugs for company use.

The complaint alleges that some employees and investors were aware of the drug purchases, and that BMIS [Bernard Madoff Investment Services] was known by insiders as the "North Pole" in reference to the excessive amount of cocaine use in the work place."

Bernie Madoff shows nearly every sign of being a true sociopath; I don't think you can use the exception to highlight the norm here. One is a criminal and knows it, the other thinks they're just walking a legal razor.

 

[WhoWee]

It is not necessarily just Wall Street. That term covers a lot of area. The big investment banks aren't even on Wall Street.

http://www.minyanville.com/businessmarkets/articles/wall-street-cocaine-bernie-madoff-fridays/10/27/2009/id/25132

The "real world"?

from your post my bold
"Of course, using drugs to get through the trading day is nothing new. Cocaine use within the gilded walls of the New York Stock Exchange dates back to such a bygone era, Freud was advocating the drug then. Digitally archived copies of The New York Times detail 1915 drug raids of company heads with offices located a few blocks down from the trading floor. Numerous links between the drug and Wall Street have emerged through the years -- including a high-profile sting that resulted in the arrest of 19 brokers in 1967.

Cocaine grew in popularity within the bathroom stalls of Lower Manhattan's banks and brokerage offices in the 1970s -- Time magazine famously referred to the drug as a "chic refreshment" in a 1973 article -- and hit its towering stride during the mid-1980s.

With cocaine well along its comeback trail, it wouldn't be surprising to find tiny discarded baggies in a Lower East Side punk bar. But a T.G.I. Friday's a block and a half south from the Stock Exchange? A tad out of the ordinary.

A raid of the chain restaurant in March of this year busted a well-known drug hook-up among Wall Street employees. Exchanges would be made in plain view -- albeit surreptitiously inside Friday's napkins -- but allegedly with the knowledge of the restaurant's management and staff.

A July article in New York magazine detailed the financial woes of the cocaine dealer post-recession, but it will take more than a financial crisis to cripple the decadence in the land of financial bailouts and golden parachutes.

Along with Madoff's recent connection to the drug, cocaine seems to not only hit the highest of profiles, but also span the vast hierarchy of Wall Street employees -- from the 16 brokers arrested in 1987 to CNBC's Larry Kudlow, who entered rehab and found religion to combat the addiction.

But really, would anyone doubt it?"

Perhaps it would be appropriate to compare these statistics to arrests among union workers - for a "real world" perspective?

 

[WhoWee]

My point is that it's incorrect to blame the financial crisis on drug abuse.

 

[Al68]

... "nuts" is usually reserved, when used at all, for those disorders which have elements of psychosis.

Fine, you're absolutely correct on this one. I improperly used the technical term "nut-job".

 

[nismaratwork]

Fine, you're absolutely correct on this one. I improperly used the technical term "nut-job".

Yes, yes... very funny...

@WhoWee: It would be fair to implicate it as a contributing factor, but not only on Wall Street. The thing is, what's a mailman going to do? Lose your mail? A banker can lose your savings and you lose your home.

 

[WhoWee]

Yes, yes... very funny...

@WhoWee: It would be fair to implicate it as a contributing factor, but not only on Wall Street. The thing is, what's a mailman going to do? Lose your mail? A banker can lose your savings and you lose your home.

Let's define who that banker is - and how "he" can lose your home. Are we now talking about a predatory lender?

I'm not sure where the mailman example came from - have anything on arrests of auto workers?

 

[nismaratwork]

Let's define who that banker is - and how "he" can lose your home. Are we now talking about a predatory lender?

I'm not sure where the mailman example came from - have anything on arrests of auto workers?

Lets not move the topic out of the realm of the OP, and the points being made by myself and Norman.

 

[WhoWee]

Lets not move the topic out of the realm of the OP, and the points being made by myself and Norman.

Again - "Let's define who that banker is - and how "he" can lose your home."

 

[nismaratwork]

Again - "Let's define who that banker is - and how "he" can lose your home."

Why? For what possible need other than a side-track from other points? If you're going to selectively respond, why should I keep adressing multiple points? This is my personal line in the sand for ideology, even with you, who I recognize as a valid source of information.

 

[WhoWee]

Why? For what possible need other than a side-track from other points? If you're going to selectively respond, why should I keep adressing multiple points? This is my personal line in the sand for ideology, even with you, who I recognize as a valid source of information.

IMO - the banker using coke is a non-starter - that's all.

 

[nismaratwork]

IMO - the banker using coke is a non-starter - that's all.

You have failed to make that case, in the face of evidence to the contrary. Your opinion is noted, but in the face of massive fraud and wrongdoing by a group that is famous for their drug abuse (again, not just cocaine), is something worth noting.

I know I pay attention when Hugo Chavez says he chews Coca leaves EVERY DAY.

 

[WhoWee]

You have failed to make that case, in the face of evidence to the contrary.

The evidence contained in the above posts included a description of cocaine use in 1915 (I think it was still legal?), several references to the 1970's, and a total of 35 arrests between 1967 and 1987. Again, this is a non-starter - let's move on (please).

 

[edward]

The evidence contained in the above posts included a description of cocaine use in 1915 (I think it was still legal?), several references to the 1970's, and a total of 35 arrests between 1967 and 1987. Again, this is a non-starter - let's move on (please).

Sure whatever, they don't keep statistics on drug use in the markets. I know personally of three Market Makers Two of them are cocaine addicts.

My nephew works for one of them. Ironically personal experience doesn't count for anything on this forum. When my nephew tells me drug use is widespread I tend to believe him.

My nephew is a moral person. He would like to quit his job but he can't bring himself to give up the $500k he makes per year for hyping stocks on the Internet.

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2007/12/21/drugs-and-todays-wall-street/

 

[WhoWee]

Again, it's a non-starter - let's move forward.

Here's a start - might have more teeth than cocaine use by bankers?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/49755779/Economic-Warfare-Risks-and-Responses-by-Kevin-D-Freeman

 

[edward]

Again, it's a non-starter - let's move forward.

Here's a start - might have more teeth than cocaine use by bankers?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/49755779/Economic-Warfare-Risks-and-Responses-by-Kevin-D-Freeman

The purpose of this report is to consider the implications of financial terrorismand/or economic warfare and to identify and realistically list prospective threats to U.S. economic security from a means, motive, and opportunity perspective. The preliminary conclusions of the research suggest that, without question, there wereactors who had the motive to harm the U.S. economy. These motives can be categorizedas both economic and non-economic. In addition, these same actors have clearlydemonstrated the means to carry out such an attack. Finally, the opportunity was clearlypresent given the existing economic condition and regulatory framework in operation. The hypothesis under consideration is that a three-phased attack is underway with two of those phases completed to date.

I had given this type of scenario some serious thought. No proof of any kind has surfaced.

We did it to ourselves, yet had some foreign entity been involved we would be at war.

Ironically those responsible for the financial crisis were never prosecuted or penalized.

Many people including Realtors ,appraisers, mortgage lenders, and all the way up to the big investment banks had their fingers in the pie.

with two of those phases completed to date

We still may see a third phase, homegrown or otherwise.

Hosing prices are falling well below what could be called an market adjustment with no end in sight.

 

[nismaratwork]

Gambling... high risk trading... anti-social traits... people who crave power...

...and drugs, go together like H2 and 0. If you want to generalize, I'd be happy to start a thread comparing known traits of traders, bankers, CEOs, and those of high-risk groups for drug abuse. Now, I already know the answer... still think it's a non-starter?

For instance, totally separate from bankers for an example: people with Bipolar Disorder:
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/bipolar-disorder/complete-index.shtml

Now, imagine that we isolate traits, including "problem drinking" which is correlated specifically with cocaine abuse, with known bankers and CEO's. It's not pretty, it's not conclusive, but even being charitable it's ugly. When you add that to anecdotes, wild risks and criminal/destructive behaviour... hmmm. I'd say that's a real issue in politics, and anywhere you have a concentration of power and a lack of effective oversight.

 

[gravenewworld]

You can pretty much thank Phil Gramm for all the economic mess and $4/gallon gas we a paying for now.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2008/05/foreclosure-phil


Apparently he learned nothing from the Great Depression, gutted the Glass Steagall act, and also ushered in legislation that paved the way for the current, almost completely unregulated, derivative market as well as for all of the speculation that is artificially driving up prices for energy.

 

[Astronuc]

Yves Smith discusses the ongoing mortgage/financial crisis.

http://www.kcrw.com/media-player/embed/a/audioEmbed.swf?id=ls101205le_show_-_december_5

http://www.harryshearer.com/article/?auid=WmyVa-418-cDmH8


Sounds like racketeering and corrupt organizations.

More from Yves Smith - http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/category/econned

or example -

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011...t-wall-street-ceos-and-senior-executives.html

Update: MERS? It May Have Swallowed Your Loan
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/06/business/06mers.html

 

[klimatos]

For a financial blogger who is both informative and literate, I recommend "London Banker". Just google on the name and take your pick of informative and well-written articles.

 

[OmCheeto]

The quote was an excerpt from Soros' book, The Crisis of Global Capitalism, and a bit off topic.

Sorry about that.

I was trying to find his quote about; "This benefited no one but me", regarding him making nearly a billion dollars in one day, playing the game, with other peoples money, but I couldn't find the quote.

It's odd to think a person can make a billion dollars in one day, legally, just because that's the way the rules are written.

I'm sure that's what Soros was thinking, a few days after that "CHA CHING!" moment.

Gads I admire smart people.

To put the matter simply, market forces, if they are given complete authority even in the purely economic and financial arena, produce chaos and could ultimately lead to the downfall of the global capitalist system.