Engineering Becoming an engineer with no degree?

[elkement]

Thanks for clearing that up. My german is pretty bad. It's still impressive that 60% of the power comes from hydroplants. What's the price of gas there? In some parts of the US, gas is just $1.99.

For a consumer the price is about 7 Cents (€ Cents) per kWh gas - this is already factoring in the fixed fees (like metering) and the grid operator's costs. Electrical power is about 17 Cents per kWh (again including grid costs and all). Hydro power has a long tradition in Austria (in an Alpine region with suitable rivers) - the large power plants at the Danube were sort of icons of rebuilding the country after WWII.
Responding to your second question about the most important engineering companies - it depends on the definition of engineering... If you mention Wienerberger, I would also add RHI. Steel industry is important - voestalpine. All the companies in the power sector - e.g. Austrian Power Grid, the main transmission grid operator.
Actually I would need to check corporate org charts to check if companies count or still count as Austrian. A part of ABB (Swedish and/or Swiss if I am not mistaken) came from an Austrian company. Then there is Magna founded by Austro-Canadian Frank Stronach. Siemens is German, but also important here.

Wow, that was off-topic again! But it is your thread ;-)

 

[TyPie]

For a consumer the price is about 7 Cents (€ Cents) per kWh gas - this is already factoring in the fixed fees (like metering) and the grid operator's costs. Electrical power is about 17 Cents per kWh (again including grid costs and all). Hydro power has a long tradition in Austria (in an Alpine region with suitable rivers) - the large power plants at the Danube were sort of icons of rebuilding the country after WWII.
Responding to your second question about the most important engineering companies - it depends on the definition of engineering... If you mention Wienerberger, I would also add RHI. Steel industry is important - voestalpine. All the companies in the power sector - e.g. Austrian Power Grid, the main transmission grid operator.
Actually I would need to check corporate org charts to check if companies count or still count as Austrian. A part of ABB (Swedish if I am not mistaken) came from an Austrian company. Then there is Magna founded by Austro-Canadian Frank Stronach. Siemens is German, but also important here.

Wow, that was off-topic again! But it is your thread ;-)

I was just curious! =)
I ask so many questions, because I get excited easily.

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

Yes, the methods we use for educating and certifying engineers need a lot of improvement.

My point is that apprenticeship is probably a better way to go. I said NOTHING about courses on formal mathematics, science, or any other subject. What I am trying to say is that it should be taught in context of where it will be used.

This does two things: First, learning will be remembered much better when one has actually built something with it. Second, nobody engineers with a completely clean sheet of paper. There are design practices and standards. Schools teach theory, not design practice. Swallowing that much theory all at once does not do an Engineer any favors. It has no context. Remembering that theory in the future is nearly impossible --unless there is experience and practice that gives context and meaning.

Engineering is a very different endeavor than science. Students of science study the theories so that they can devise new experiments to make new discoveries at the edge of what is known. Engineering students study the science, yes, but they also have standards and practices which are an integral part of any design. It is important to learn those standards, how they are applied, and the limits where they are no longer valid, in addition to the theory.

Most of you are concerned with the theory. Theory is great, but Engineering is more than theory. Furthermore, the end user is usually ignorant of many aspects of the design, whereas it is rare for a scientist be ignorant about any aspect of an experiment. For example, one does not think about the mathematics of the catenary function, or the additional stresses on the cables when driving over a suspension bridge; but a scientist who is unaware of every detail in the controls of an experiment is doomed.

The thing we call a formal engineering education is no better than using a hammer designed by scientists to pound a screw designed by engineers into a block of wood that is the actual work product. Teaching science and mathematics is ultimately necessary; but without application and context, few will remember it. We are not getting as much out of the educational system as I think we should. Instead, we have allowed simple-minded people to build a system that forces us to stuff Engineering students full of theory that they may not remember or use for at least a decade or more. And then we sit and wonder why so many of them talk about the courses they took as students as if it were some academic hazing ritual.

I sympathize with TyPie. I would like to see people like her able to break into this field without needing to spend at least four years in an institution that is ill suited to teach what people actually use every day. If you actually think we are well served by this situation, then please keep doing what you're doing. Perhaps another group of people will discover just how messed up this system is and improve on it.

But what do I know. I'm just an engineer who has been through this process, didn't think much of it then, and still doesn't think much of it now, 25 years later. If my teenage children decide to follow in my footsteps, I hope they find a different way. If you disagree, then this is not the rant you're looking for. Move along...

 

[gfd43tg]

@JakeBrodskyPE

I Thought all these classes I'm taking are a hazing ritual. From what I see, engineers have very little creative freedom because there are very strict standards and "tried and true" methods within companies, status quos, etc. I don't expect most my classes to serve me in the future, but I am almost done with my haze at least...

 

[psparky]

A buddy of mine has a graphic art design degree. He was struggling after school as a roofer...making 25K a year when he could work...winters mostly off.

He then decided to slightly lie on his resume and claimed he knew CAD quite well. He was stretching the truth and got his foot in the door.
He then worked his way into being a top electrical designer with a small firm. He then followed me over to a larger firm and was all the sudden making 50K a year.

He went on there for a couple years and was a standout even among the engineers and PE.

He just got hired into a BIM (Revitt) position doing high rise buildings...he is now making 75K per year plus benefits. Not bad for graphic design degree.
And yes, he is very intelligent and very sharp...just got wrong degree.

Point is, sometimes you have to think outside the box, stretch the truth a bit and so forth.

Some people say go ahead and put your past experiences on your resume, but also focus more on what you want to be doing in the future rather than what you are capable now. Some people have said this...so not a fact, just an opinion.

 

[TyPie]

A buddy of mine has a graphic art design degree. He was struggling after school as a roofer...making 25K a year when he could work...winters mostly off.

He then decided to slightly lie on his resume and claimed he knew CAD quite well. He was stretching the truth and got his foot in the door.
He then worked his way into being a top electrical designer with a small firm. He then followed me over to a larger firm and was all the sudden making 50K a year.

He went on there for a couple years and was a standout even among the engineers and PE.

He just got hired into a BIM (Revitt) position doing high rise buildings...he is now making 75K per year plus benefits. Not bad for graphic design degree.
And yes, he is very intelligent and very sharp...just got wrong degree.

Point is, sometimes you have to think outside the box, stretch the truth a bit and so forth.

Some people say go ahead and put your past experiences on your resume, but also focus more on what you want to be doing in the future rather than what you are capable now. Some people have said this...so not a fact, just an opinion.

I know some people go to school to major in something they're bad at too. There was some guy that was really good at science, but ended up majoring in english. People made fun of him for his choice, but when he got his foot in the door, he just couldn't stop writing scientific papers. He pulled in an enormous amount of funding by his papers too...

 

[StatGuy2000]

Yes, the methods we use for educating and certifying engineers need a lot of improvement.

My point is that apprenticeship is probably a better way to go. I said NOTHING about courses on formal mathematics, science, or any other subject. What I am trying to say is that it should be taught in context of where it will be used.

This does two things: First, learning will be remembered much better when one has actually built something with it. Second, nobody engineers with a completely clean sheet of paper. There are design practices and standards. Schools teach theory, not design practice. Swallowing that much theory all at once does not do an Engineer any favors. It has no context. Remembering that theory in the future is nearly impossible --unless there is experience and practice that gives context and meaning.

Engineering is a very different endeavor than science. Students of science study the theories so that they can devise new experiments to make new discoveries at the edge of what is known. Engineering students study the science, yes, but they also have standards and practices which are an integral part of any design. It is important to learn those standards, how they are applied, and the limits where they are no longer valid, in addition to the theory.

Most of you are concerned with the theory. Theory is great, but Engineering is more than theory. Furthermore, the end user is usually ignorant of many aspects of the design, whereas it is rare for a scientist be ignorant about any aspect of an experiment. For example, one does not think about the mathematics of the catenary function, or the additional stresses on the cables when driving over a suspension bridge; but a scientist who is unaware of every detail in the controls of an experiment is doomed.

The thing we call a formal engineering education is no better than using a hammer designed by scientists to pound a screw designed by engineers into a block of wood that is the actual work product. Teaching science and mathematics is ultimately necessary; but without application and context, few will remember it. We are not getting as much out of the educational system as I think we should. Instead, we have allowed simple-minded people to build a system that forces us to stuff Engineering students full of theory that they may not remember or use for at least a decade or more. And then we sit and wonder why so many of them talk about the courses they took as students as if it were some academic hazing ritual.

I sympathize with TyPie. I would like to see people like her able to break into this field without needing to spend at least four years in an institution that is ill suited to teach what people actually use every day. If you actually think we are well served by this situation, then please keep doing what you're doing. Perhaps another group of people will discover just how messed up this system is and improve on it.

But what do I know. I'm just an engineer who has been through this process, didn't think much of it then, and still doesn't think much of it now, 25 years later. If my teenage children decide to follow in my footsteps, I hope they find a different way. If you disagree, then this is not the rant you're looking for. Move along...

Look, I understand that you are frustrated with the system currently in place to educate and train prospective engineers. I get that. But the points you raise beg the following questions: (a) what engineering is, (b) how should engineers be educated/trained, and (c) do any other countries in the world do it differently than those in the US, and do they do it better.

It's pointless to argue about the deficiencies of the training process of any profession without having some concrete (or even general) ideas of how to change it, and whether others have attempted to or thought about changing such training methods.

 

[TyPie]

Look, I understand that you are frustrated with the system currently in place to educate and train prospective engineers. I get that. But the points you raise beg the following questions: (a) what engineering is, (b) how should engineers be educated/trained, and (c) do any other countries in the world do it differently than those in the US, and do they do it better.

It's pointless to argue about the deficiencies of the training process of any profession without having some concrete (or even general) ideas of how to change it, and whether others have attempted to or thought about changing such training methods.

I think we came up with the solution to just lie on your resume.

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

Look, I understand that you are frustrated with the system currently in place to educate and train prospective engineers. I get that. But the points you raise beg the following questions: (a) what engineering is, (b) how should engineers be educated/trained, and (c) do any other countries in the world do it differently than those in the US, and do they do it better.

It's pointless to argue about the deficiencies of the training process of any profession without having some concrete (or even general) ideas of how to change it, and whether others have attempted to or thought about changing such training methods.

That's a fine question. If you look at what other countries think an engineer is you'll discover that they're not even remotely similar education or experience requirements. In some cases, I have to wonder if they even assign the same meanings to the words. Doing it "better" depends upon what you expect from the outcome.

My point is that I think engineering in North America could be improved significantly by migrating away from a strictly academic approach and toward more apprenticeship. Note that I'm not dismissing academics entirely, but I am trying to avoid Years of class work that students barely use for a decade or more. I would also like to see more technical development taught to students. For example, I learned about RF engineering entirely on my own. I never had any classes on the various polynomials used in filters, Impedance mapping using S-Parameters was not taught either, Noise figure calculations and Dynamic Range measurement techniques were not taught either. The notions of group delay characteristics and linearity were not taught either. Antenna design was only taught in the most rudimentary discussions with no transmission line theory at all. Nobody discussed modulation theory at all. These are things that I had to learn on my own. I wish there had been a mentor to help me understand those things.

These days, I see issues with power grid stability, syncrophaser data analysis, and the like. Nobody teaches the theory behind real time systems used in SCADA and event based reporting problems, either. We all learned how it works by trying stuff and figuring out what works and what doesn't. And by the way, this isn't just me complaining. I was at an academic meeting several years ago and professors were complaining amongst each other that THEY had no idea what people like me were building with or doing in the standards we wrote.

In other words, this learning never stops. Even if they remember every lesson from college, there are still new techniques and new concepts to discover throughout the career. We need to keep a fresh perspective from mentors who teach younger engineers where the state of the art is. So why not start that way from the beginning? My rant is against the sheer incompetence of bureaucracies to properly gauge what a person can or can't do. I am suggesting a system of apprentice oriented study because I feel it is better suited and longer lasting than an entirely academic approach.

As for TyPie's notion of just lying on a resume: Do not lie on your resume. That is a firing offense in most places.

You will get caught eventually. I used to work with a lady who, for nearly 15 years told everyone that she'd graduated from a well known college. Then one day, someone checked. It later turned out that although she had attended that well known college for some time, she never graduated as she had claimed. She was fired not long after that and they used that original lie to keep her out.

 

[homeomorphic]

TyPie, have you thought about programming?

If you can prove your skills by doing really good projects, you don't need a degree. That's why I've been trying to get involved in that. Now, I'm heading more towards algorithm development because I'm the opposite of you, and I think people think I'm overqualified (PhD in pure math). But more programming-oriented stuff is still a back-up plan because I think eventually, I can get good enough projects to break in without a CS degree.

BTW, honesty is the best policy. Or maybe not because I'm one of the most overqualified semi-employed people in the US, and maybe honesty isn't getting me a job, but I stick by it. Sort of. People make it so difficult to get a job, you can't really be 100% honest about everything. Because I'm so honest, my tendency, in a perfect world, would be to lay out the all the pros and cons of hiring me, but what I do is try to just leave out the cons.

 

[homeomorphic]

And I forgot to mention that programming is a good way to get hired by companies that do engineering. You would still be doing programming for them, rather than actual engineering, but you'd still be involved in building stuff, or at least contributing to the software part of it.

 

[TyPie]

That's a fine question. If you look at what other countries think an engineer is you'll discover that they're not even remotely similar education or experience requirements. In some cases, I have to wonder if they even assign the same meanings to the words. Doing it "better" depends upon what you expect from the outcome.

My point is that I think engineering in North America could be improved significantly by migrating away from a strictly academic approach and toward more apprenticeship. Note that I'm not dismissing academics entirely, but I am trying to avoid Years of class work that students barely use for a decade or more. I would also like to see more technical development taught to students. For example, I learned about RF engineering entirely on my own. I never had any classes on the various polynomials used in filters, Impedance mapping using S-Parameters was not taught either, Noise figure calculations and Dynamic Range measurement techniques were not taught either. The notions of group delay characteristics and linearity were not taught either. Antenna design was only taught in the most rudimentary discussions with no transmission line theory at all. Nobody discussed modulation theory at all. These are things that I had to learn on my own. I wish there had been a mentor to help me understand those things.

These days, I see issues with power grid stability, syncrophaser data analysis, and the like. Nobody teaches the theory behind real time systems used in SCADA and event based reporting problems, either. We all learned how it works by trying stuff and figuring out what works and what doesn't. And by the way, this isn't just me complaining. I was at an academic meeting several years ago and professors were complaining amongst each other that THEY had no idea what people like me were building with or doing in the standards we wrote.

In other words, this learning never stops. Even if they remember every lesson from college, there are still new techniques and new concepts to discover throughout the career. We need to keep a fresh perspective from mentors who teach younger engineers where the state of the art is. So why not start that way from the beginning? My rant is against the sheer incompetence of bureaucracies to properly gauge what a person can or can't do. I am suggesting a system of apprentice oriented study because I feel it is better suited and longer lasting than an entirely academic approach.

As for TyPie's notion of just lying on a resume: Do not lie on your resume. That is a firing offense in most places.

You will get caught eventually. I used to work with a lady who, for nearly 15 years told everyone that she'd graduated from a well known college. Then one day, someone checked. It later turned out that although she had attended that well known college for some time, she never graduated as she had claimed. She was fired not long after that and they used that original lie to keep her out.

What she made in 15 yrs would have taken her 30 yrs if not more to make the same amount. What's even more disturbing is that you guys couldn't figure out that she wasn't very smart. This is a reason why people really question what you learn with a degree.

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

What she made in 15 yrs would have taken her 30 yrs if not more to make the same amount. What's even more disturbing is that you guys couldn't figure out that she wasn't very smart. This is a reason why people really question what you learn with a degree.

Not sure if you're trolling, but I'll give you the benefit of my doubts.

What you don't realize is after that time she hasn't had steady work since. Mind you, the original people who hired her were no longer with the company.

Some day you will discover the Peter Principle. This lady had hit the Peter Principle limit pretty hard. It wasn't merely that she annoyed many people around her, we have had many annoying managers, so that's not a major show stopper. The problem was that she had no idea how to manage the systems she was tasked with maintaining. The whole company was depending on the systems being there. She also could not account for where her budget went, and was often absent without leave.

If you feel that little white lies like this are acceptable, then you'll do it again for something else. Sooner or later it will snowball and then you'll end up like her. I strongly recommend honesty. You'll sleep better at night and your overall quality of life will be better.

 

[DivergentSpectrum]

I think you complain too much.
Put yourself in my shoes. I have a criminal record (and not just a one time thing but a long rapsheet from when i was young and stupid)
I may know physics and math up to maxwells laws, including a general knowledge of c programming, but in all likelyhood itll be nothing more than a hobby. I am struggling to find a job flipping burgers, and youre complaining cause you don't want to do some menial work to pay your way through an accelerated course.