B Big Bang Question -- How was the first matter formed?

[MagneticMagic]

TL;DR Summary

Big Bangs Theories

Big Bang singularity can never be solved, so

Could the "big bang" have been an event where a large sum of highly-dense dark energy converted into mass, and in doing the result is like a nuclear explosion?

Could the "big bang" just have been a large sum of matter where the core becomes super dense and at the same time the core surrounded by lots and lots of other matter which is less dense, but then the core gets super small and dense, not a singularity, and then pops pushing everything outward?

One of the TV shows mentions early universe as creating the 1st elements H, He, and Li. Why Li ?

 

[Orodruin]

No and no.

The light elements were indeed created shortly after the Big Bang in what is known as BBN (Big Bang Nucleosynthesis). This is generally well understood.

 

[mathman]

H comes from gamma ray interaction. He and Li from collisions.

 

[phinds]

Summary:: Big Bangs Theories

Big Bang singularity can never be solved, so

Could the "big bang" have been an event where a large sum of highly-dense dark energy converted into mass, and in doing the result is like a nuclear explosion?

This is just nonsense. I suggest reading "The First Three Minutes"

 

[Drakkith]

One of the TV shows mentions early universe as creating the 1st elements H, He, and Li. Why Li ?

Lithium and other heavier elements, notably beryllium, are produced via a combination of reactions that are very unlikely to occur on average, which is why only trace amounts of anything over He is found prior to the first stars undergoing supernovae.

Li is produced mainly via the following reactions:
$^3_1H+^4_2He \rightarrow ^7_3Li$
$^7_4Be+ n \rightarrow ^7_3Li + p$
$^7_4Be +e^- \rightarrow ^7_3Li$
With Be produced by:
$^3_2He+^4_2He \rightarrow ^7_4Be$

 

[mjc123]

Some of those equations don't look balanced.
⁷Be + n → ⁷Li (Proton by-product?)
³He + ⁴He → ⁸Be (should be ⁷Be?)

 

[Hornbein]

Summary:: Big Bangs Theories

Big Bang singularity can never be solved, so

Could the "big bang" have been an event where a large sum of highly-dense dark energy converted into mass, and in doing the result is like a nuclear explosion?

Could the "big bang" just have been a large sum of matter where the core becomes super dense and at the same time the core surrounded by lots and lots of other matter which is less dense, but then the core gets super small and dense, not a singularity, and then pops pushing everything outward?

One of the TV shows mentions early universe as creating the 1st elements H, He, and Li. Why Li ?

It is the "standard view" these days that our Universe is infinite. If this is so then it was infinite when it came into existence. Weird, eh?

Our visible universe is very homogenous, which means on a large scale it is pretty much the same everywhere. So when it first came into being it was extremely dense everywhere. I don't really know, but I'd suppose that it is hard to say what it was. After a while it cooled down enough to become matter and anti-matter. Mostly these annihilated one another into energy, mysteriously leaving a residue of matter. I suppose it was a quark-gluon plasma or something even more exotic. I don't know when the universe cooled enough for protons and electrons to appear en masse. The universe was still denser than the core of our sun so some of these particle fused into helium and lithium ions. After 300,000 years things had cooled enough that these ions could form atoms.

My main point is that matter appeared before atoms and ions made the scene.

 

[sysprog]

It is the "standard view" these days that our Universe is infinite.

Isn't this still not yet established? Please provide reference regarding what you are designating to be the "standard view" regarding that matter. I think that we still can't say for certain that the universe is or isn't finite.

 

[Drakkith]

Some of those equations don't look balanced.
⁷Be + n → ⁷Li (Proton by-product?)
³He + ⁴He → ⁸Be (should be ⁷Be?)

Whoops. Corrected now. Thanks!

 

[Drakkith]

Isn't this still not yet established? Please provide reference regarding what you are designating to be the "standard view" regarding that matter. I think that we still can't say for certain that the universe is or isn't finite.

It's the standard view but that doesn't mean we've settled the matter completely.

 

[sysprog]

It's the standard view but that doesn't mean we've settled the matter completely.

Where is infiniteness {or finiteness) asserted to be a part of the 'standard view'? It seems to me that the FLRW model (which could be called a 'standard view') is silent regarding finiteness or infiniteness. I think that there's still no true consensus regarding the 'finite or infinite universe' matter yet.

 

[Ibix]

I think that there's still no true consensus regarding the 'finite or infinite universe' matter yet.

Current measurements don't rule out a finite but closed universe (and if the universe is truly flat they never will), but if it's not infinite it would have to be extremely large compared to our observable universe.

 

[sysprog]

Current measurements don't rule out a finite but closed universe (and if the universe is truly flat they never will), but if it's not infinite it would have to be extremely large compared to our observable universe.

Based on the evidence, it seems that we think that it's more discoid than spheroid, and apparently raggedy at the edges, if they can rightly be called edges, but the 'infinite or finite' dichotomous possibility pair seems to remain unsettled, so I think that we should in our discourse preferably not refer to infiniteness as part of the 'standard view'.

 

[phinds]

Based on the evidence, it seems that we think that it's more discoid than spheroid, and apparently raggedy at the edges

HUH ? "edges" ? --- whether it's infinite or finite, the universe does not HAVE edges.

 

[sysprog]

HUH ? "edges" ? --- whether it's infinite or finite, the universe does not HAVE edges.

If it's finite, wouldn't that mean bounded, and couldn't that mean edges $-$ I think that those questions aren't settled yet.

 

[phinds]

If it's finite, wouldn't that mean bounded, and couldn't that mean edges $-$ I think that those questions aren't settled yet.

Yes, they are settled. Finite does not require bounded. Think of the surface of a sphere (JUST the surface). That's finite but unbounded.

 

[Drakkith]

If it's finite, wouldn't that mean bounded, and couldn't that mean edges $-$ I think that those questions aren't settled yet.

Edges are not typically given serious consideration since edges have serious problems both conceptually and mathematically. Imagine the black hole singularity problem, but worse.

 

[sysprog]

Yes, they are settled. Finite does not require bounded. Think of the surface of a sphere (JUST the surface). That's finite but unbounded.

Isn't that surface legitimately viewable as a boundary wrt the sphere?

HUH ? "edges" ? --- whether it's infinite or finite, the universe does not HAVE edges.

I I think that I adequately gave recognition to that idea in the proviso "if they can rightly be called edges".

 

[phinds]

Isn't that surface legitimately viewable as a boundary wrt the sphere?

You are specifically ignoring what I said. To repeat "JUST the surface", which, again, is finite but unbounded.

 

[sysprog]

I acknowledge that the surface of a sphere is finite and unbounded, but is not the spherical surface itself the boundary of a ball?

 

[phinds]

I acknowledge that the surface of a sphere is finite and unbounded, but is not the spherical surface itself the boundary of a ball?

Sure, but so what? That has nothing to do with what we were discussing. You stated that if the universe were finite it had to be bounded. I demonstrated that that is not the case. Why are you changing the subject?

 

[sysprog]

Sure, but so what? That has nothing to do with what we were discussing. You stated that if the universe were finite it had to be bounded. I demonstrated that that is not the case. Why are you changing the subject?

I'm looking at what so far seems to be a discoid finite universe expanding into an infinite accommodation.

 

[sysprog]

As you know, you can put all of Hilbert's Hotel in any of its rooms.

 

[phinds]

I'm looking at what so far seems to be a discoid finite universe expanding into an infinite accommodation.

But the universe doesn't expand into anything.

 

[sysprog]

It seems to me that the 'finite or infinite universe' question is not yet settled.

 

[Drakkith]

I'm looking at what so far seems to be a discoid finite universe expanding into an infinite accommodation.

That's not how mainstream cosmologists model the universe. The best fitting model that makes the fewest assumptions is that the universe is unbounded and infinite with no center and not expanding into any preexisting space.

 

[phinds]

It seems to me that the 'finite or infinite universe' question is not yet settled.

I agree, but again you are changing the subject. You keep dancing around the fact that you stated that if the universe were finite it had to be bounded. Do you still believe that?

 

[Orodruin]

Isn't that surface legitimately viewable as a boundary wrt the sphere?

No. The surface is the sphere. The embedding space is irrelevant to the actual description.

I acknowledge that the surface of a sphere is finite and unbounded, but is not the spherical surface itself the boundary of a ball?

In an embedding space, yes. But the model does not include any necessity for an embedding space.

 

[bland]

This is just nonsense. I suggest reading "The First Three Minutes"

That answers all the OP's conundrums. It took me about 20 or 30 listenings in audiobook form to fully get all the subtleties. A classic.

 

[diogenesNY]

_The First Three Minutes_ by Steven Weinberg_
Published by, amongst others, Basic Books (1st edition) and Bantam Books(MM Paperback).

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?kn=the first three minutes by steven weinberg&sts=t&cm_sp=SearchF-_-TopNavISS-_-Results

For a 'right now' read, you might like to take a look at _Misconceptions About the Big Bang_ by Charles Lineweaver and Tamara Davis:

http://pages.erau.edu/~reynodb2/LineweaverDavis_BigBang_SciAm_March05p36.pdf

 

[sysprog]

I agree, but again you are changing the subject. You keep dancing around the fact that you stated that if the universe were finite it had to be bounded. Do you still believe that?

I didn't state that; I asked wasn't it so $-$ I introduced the notion by raising a question; not by making a statement $-$ your point that finiteness does not entail boundedness is well taken.

 

[phinds]

I didn't state that; I asked wasn't it so

Well, nuts. You are right of course. I sometimes get obsessed by something and I got it in my head that you had stated that. Sorry.

 

[sysprog]

Well, nuts. You are right of course. I sometimes get obsessed by something and I got it in my head that you had stated that. Sorry.

No sweat, Sir, and thanks for being such a great contributor to human understanding $-$ really

 

[Ibix]

The usual FLRW models are infinite or finite but unbounded, depending on the initial conditions you feed in. The latter has spherical symmetry, so a line (drawn along a surface of constant cosmological time if you want to be pedantic) forms a closed loop of the same length whatever direction you pick. As I said earlier, the current best data is consistent with zero or negative curvature (infinite) and positive curvature (finite and unbounded, but very, very large).

We recently had a discussion about whether it's possible to have a finite bounded universe, at least in the sense that you could describe such a thing mathematically. I'm not sure we came to a firm conclusion either way, but the mere concept raises a lot of questions. How would a boundary even work? What does it separate us from? And why does the universe look very much the same everywhere if it has an edge, which is definitely not the same as everywhere else? It's a lot less parsimonious than a regular FLRW model, anyway, so absent any strong evidence I don't think it's considered very likely.

 

[Orodruin]

The usual FLRW models are infinite or finite but unbounded

I’m not sure I would use the word ”unbounded” with the meaning ”without a boundary”. Bounded has a mathematical meaning which is quite different from set boundaries. Technically the word would be a singular n-cycle, but that is not very enlightening to someone who does not know what that is. I would probably just use with/without boundary.

 

[Ibix]

I’m not sure I would use the word ”unbounded” with the meaning ”without a boundary”.

Noted.

 

[ohwilleke]

Summary:: Big Bangs Theories

Big Bang singularity can never be solved, so

Could the "big bang" have been an event where a large sum of highly-dense dark energy converted into mass, and in doing the result is like a nuclear explosion?

Could the "big bang" just have been a large sum of matter where the core becomes super dense and at the same time the core surrounded by lots and lots of other matter which is less dense, but then the core gets super small and dense, not a singularity, and then pops pushing everything outward?

One of the TV shows mentions early universe as creating the 1st elements H, He, and Li. Why Li ?

Getting back to the original question.

We don't really know how matter was created.

We do know that the mix of atomic elements in the universe is consistent with Big Bang Nucleosynthesis which assumes a state when almost all matter is in the state of protons and neutrons and they engage in high energy nuclear reactions shortly after the Big Bang to form atoms, subject to some modest tensions with the proportion of certain Lithium isotypes. This is done by taking known processes in stars and working backward to an initial state.

But we don't really know where the protons and neutrons came from, or where the electrons associated with those protons and neutrons came from, or how we got our initial mix of neutrinos.

The processes are usually called baryogenesis (for protons and neutrons) and leptogenesis (for electrons and neutrinos). The scientific literature about these processes is mostly theoretical and conjectural, since we can't create high enough energies in experiments to recreate the first moments after the Big Bang when we presume that matter was created (because we can rule out that it was created much later than that with the physics that we can test). See, e.g., "On the Origin of Matter In the Universe" (Bari 2021) (a 98 page long review of the literature on the subject).

No Standard Model of Particle Physics process links the existing mix of protons, neutrons, electrons and neutrinos to an initial state with no protons or neutrons or electrons and just pure energy. So, either that was not the initial state of the Universe at the Big Bang, or new physics beyond the Standard Model of Particle Physics gave rise to the existing situation, which presumably only come into play at extremely high energies such as those immediately after the Big Bang (a mere fraction of a second in conventional chronologies of the Universe).

In the current era's conditions, where we know that the Standard Model of Particle Physics works, matter and antimatter are always created in equal quantities. But, protons, neutrons and electrons are overwhelmingly matter and not antimatter, and we aren't aware of processes that would tilt the balance in favor of matter and against antimatter in time for Big Bang Nucleosynthesis to happen in a matter dominated universe.

 

[sysprog]

What about the fact that the top quark was found, despite its rareness (rarety/rarity), due to it being anticipated, due to its corresponding to a member of the SU(3) (super-unary, non-commutative (non-Abelian)) homology group?

 

[Drakkith]

What about the fact that the top quark was found, despite its rareness (rarety/rarity), due to it being anticipated, due to its corresponding to a member of the SU(3) (super-unary, non-commutative (non-Abelian)) homology group?

Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you're asking. Can you elaborate?

 

[ohwilleke]

What about the fact that the top quark was found, despite its rareness (rarety/rarity), due to it being anticipated, due to its corresponding to a member of the SU(3) (super-unary, non-commutative (non-Abelian)) homology group?

I fail to see the connection between this and the rest of the thread as well. Did you accidentally post in this thread rather than another one discussing a question where this observation is more pertinent?

Are you simply trying to point out that if you have a theory that tells you where to look it is much easier to find the evidence you need to prove that theory?

 

[sysprog]

Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you're asking. Can you elaborate?

I intended that question to be in response to @ohwilleke's post (#37 in this thread) $-$ but more generally, for any reader, what, in your view, might be an implication of a mathematical model being useable for prediction of the existence of a previously undetected physical reality?

 

[Drakkith]

for any reader, what, in your view, might be an implication of a mathematical model being useable for prediction of the existence of a previously undetected physical reality?

Again I'm not quite sure what you're asking, and what does this have to do with the thread topic?

 

[sysprog]

I fail to see the connection between this and the rest of the thread as well. Did you accidentally post in this thread rather than another one discussing a question where this observation is more pertinent?

Are you simply trying to point out that if you have a theory that tells you where to look it is much easier to find the evidence you need to prove that theory?

I think that it's remarkable that a mathematical model was successfully used to fill out the quark chart, and I think that the quantum chromodynamic quark model of hadron composition is germane to your remark in post #37 that "We don't really know how matter was created." I agree that we don't really know exactly how matter was created, but we know a lot more about that than we did before we sought the lighter hadrons due to what the mathematical model SU(3) suggested.

 

[pinball1970]

Noted.

Just a quicky.

Unbounded means I am not going to encounter an edge, so the surface of a sphere I will never meet an edge, I just keep walking round the surface.

If it is finite and I could fast enough but also unbounded does this mean at some point I would come back on myself? If I could travel fast enough and long enough?

This is what I have read (possibly in the Hawking book)

EDIT: From research gate (people also ask)

"According the current Cosmology our Universe is finite and unbounded, even if it is expanding. The visual analogy that is given to explain this is an expanding sphere where the galaxies are dots on it's surface."

I thought the leaning was towards infinite spatially but not temporally (from a pf thread, sorry not sure which, before xmas )

 

[Drakkith]

If it is finite and I could fast enough but also unbounded does this mean at some point I would come back on myself? If I could travel fast enough and long enough?

Quite possibly, yes. For example, if the universe is finite and unbounded with positive curvature the it would be like moving across the surface of a sphere where you could travel in one direction and eventually come back around on your original starting point.

"According the current Cosmology our Universe is finite and unbounded, even if it is expanding. The visual analogy that is given to explain this is an expanding sphere where the galaxies are dots on it's surface."

I thought the leaning was towards infinite spatially but not temporally (from a pf thread, sorry not sure which, before xmas )

The leaning is towards infinite as far as I know.

 

[Ibix]

Unbounded means I am not going to encounter an edge, so the surface of a sphere I will never meet an edge, I just keep walking round the surface.

That's the meaning I was intending, but @Orodruin says that's an incorrect use of technical language and we should say "without boundary" instead.

If it is finite and I could fast enough but also unbounded does this mean at some point I would come back on myself? If I could travel fast enough and long enough?

In a closed universe, yes. I believe you'd need to exceed the speed of light to do it, though.

I thought the leaning was towards infinite spatially but not temporally (from a pf thread, sorry not sure which, before xmas )

It can't be distinguished from flat (i.e. spatially infinite and temporally infinite in the future), but it's not certain. What "current cosmology" thinks probably depends who you talk to...

 

[sysprog]

Thanks. I have enough books.

I wasn't trying to give you suggestions for filling your library shelves; I was giving you a reference for reading material for a topic in which you seemed to be interested; please understand it as intended $-$ that book explains a lot about the formation of matter, but the topic isn't especially simple.

 

[Orodruin]

I think there are two separate questions here when one asks where matter came from. The first is where the matter came from as in where did the initial hot dense plasma come from. The second is why, when most of the baryons and leptons annihilated with their reapective anti-particles in the plasma, was there a leftover out of which the matter we see today has formed.

To the first: We do not know and it is not really part of the standard Big Bang theory to explain this and is rather an initial condition. What is true is that if you fill a universe with something energetic enough and that interacts strong enough with the standard model sector, you will end up with such a plasma at thermal equilibrium. In inflationary models, this is usually done through a reheating process where the universe is left absolutely void of things after inflation save for the remnant inflaton field whose remaining energy is then dumped into the standard model sector. Of course, inflation remains untested.

As for the second question, it is not so much a question of how the matter was created (it was created along with the rest of the hot plasma) but rather why it was allowed to remain. This is typically done through the creation of a matter-antimatter asymmetry such as a non-zero baryon or lepton number, meaning there will be just ever so slightly more particles than antiparticles. While the standard model is able to create such an asymmetry, the achievable magnitude of such an asymmetry in the standard model is much too small to explain the amount of matter we observe. Hence the need to look for new physics for this purpose.

 

[bland]

I can't remember if it was in The First Three Minutes or elsewhere, but I was particularly taken with the idea that if you imagine a magic oven that doesn't melt, and there is nothing* in that oven and all you do is keep upping the temperature, then eventually matter will burst into existence.

*no matter

 

[PeterDonis]

I was particularly taken with the idea that if you imagine a magic oven that doesn't melt, and there is nothing* in that oven and all you do is keep upping the temperature, then eventually matter will burst into existence.

There isn't "nothing" in the oven; there are quantum fields. And to raise the temperature, you need to add energy, and that energy has to come from somewhere. So you aren't bringing matter into existence out of nothing. All you're doing is adding energy to quantum fields to take them from their vacuum state, with no particles present, to higher energy states that have particles present.