Billionaire funding creation of artificial libertarian islands

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Peter Thiel has invested $1.25 million in the Seasteading Institute, which aims to create floating libertarian nations in international waters, free from existing laws and regulations. The initiative is seen as a platform for testing libertarian policies, but concerns arise about the potential societal implications, including the risk of inhabitants being unable to reintegrate into conventional society. Critics argue that the concept resembles a regression to a lawless "Wild West" scenario, raising fears about safety and governance. Supporters suggest these islands could serve as research havens for controversial scientific endeavors, though the practicality and ethics of such experiments are debated. Overall, the discussion highlights a clash between libertarian ideals and the necessity of regulations in maintaining societal order.
  • #101
FlexGunship said:
It is autonomous from mainland China (even has it's own leader), but certainly not libertarian. The fact that it's elections are "closed door" really seals the deal; even when citizens vote, they are unaware of the voting outcome and an electoral panel secretly votes to fill elective roles. Furthermore, it is only now being democratized. I don't think you can have libertarianism without flourishing democracy.

Although, now that I'm reading more about it, it certainly sounds much better than mainland China. The freedoms afforded by their "Basic Law" far exceeds those afforded to other Chinese citizens.
I'm referring of course to the economics and business practices of Hong Kong, and to the degree that the government stays out of people lives with respect to both economics and social issues, regardless of what input citizens have or don't have into the govt. process. Even the OP artificial island won't be perfectly libertarian if it is realized, just as one won't find any system of economics and govt perfectly socialistic, perfectly conservative, etc.
 
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  • #102
mheslep said:
I'm referring of course to the economics and business practices of Hong Kong, and to the degree that the government stays out of people lives with respect to both economics and social issues, regardless of what input citizens have or don't have into the govt. process. Even the OP artificial island won't be perfectly libertarian if it is realized, just as one won't find any system of economics and govt perfectly socialistic, perfectly conservative, etc.

I concede the point and agree. By your metrics, your argument is sound.
 
  • #103
Off topic posts deleted. This thread is about building artificial libertarian islands in the ocean.

If you want to discuss New Hampshire, there is now a thread in P&WA.
 
  • #104
would it be OK to discuss guns on libertarian islands per the OP?
 
  • #105
Utopias have always worked out well, haven't they?
 
  • #106
Proton Soup said:
would it be OK to discuss guns on libertarian islands per the OP?
All the OP says on that is
Mr Thiel and his colleagues say their ocean state would have no welfare, looser building codes, no minimum wage, and few restrictions on weapons.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ountry-coast-San-Francisco.html#ixzz1VzPwlY8J

I said guns because that seems to be what libertarians rant about, so my bad.
 
  • #107
rhody said:
How about this, post apocalyptic http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mega-engineering-building-a-floating-city.html" . At 01:57 Costner is still looking for land, keep looking Kevin...

Seriously though, why don't these brainiac's consider a floating city concept instead of an island, seems like a better choice to me, more capital for sure, but it's jigsaw approach would allow you to add as you can afford it, seems pretty logical to me, and address every need you could dream of.

I am sure a small number of the most wealthy people in the world could start this if they had the collective vision, will, and money to bankroll it. The hard part would be getting these http://www.google.com/search?client...66&bih=585&q=billionaires&btnG=Google+Search" on the same page ideologically, look at the discussion that this thread has generated of differing opinions. Forbes says there are 1210 of them world wide, so there are plenty of them who could step up to the plate.

Rhody... :cool:

P.S. If located in deep enough water, no tsunami worries, although cat 5 hurricanes could pose a challenge.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I like the idea of a man made floating island, lego style. One of its advantages, is that if needed it could be relocated to a more secure or God forbid desirable location. This would be to accommodate weather conditions, civil unrest on the mainland next to this floating paradise. Lastly, if the nearest country had problems with the unruly island tenants, they could simply move it. The more I think about it from a functional perspective, the more I like it.

I prefer not to enter into endless discussion about the perils and benefits and organization of such a society because it devolves into conservative, moderate, liberal and libertarian thinking. We all know how well these three groups get along in US culture, now don't we !

I will say this, if the host country nearest this man made floating island has no major issues (assuming it is in international waters more than 12 miles offshore), I say let them have a go at it and see what happens. I think the outcome cannot be reasonably predicted by anyone contributing to this thread, so let's conduct an experiment, see what happens. One last thing, only private funds should be used to create it.

Rhody... o:)
 
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  • #108
rhody said:
Not to beat a dead horse, but I like the idea of a man made floating island, lego style. One of its advantages, is that if needed it could be relocated to a more secure or God forbid desirable location. This would be to accommodate weather conditions, civil unrest on the mainland next to this floating paradise. Lastly, if the nearest country had problems with the unruly island tenants, they could simply move it. The more I think about it from a functional perspective, the more I like it.

I prefer not to enter into endless discussion about the perils and benefits and organization of such a society because it devolves into conservative, moderate, liberal and libertarian thinking. We all know how well these three groups get along in US culture, now don't we !

I will say this, if the host country nearest this man made floating island has no major issues (assuming it is in international waters more than 12 miles offshore), I say let them have a go at it and see what happens. I think the outcome cannot be reasonably predicted by anyone contributing to this thread, so let's conduct an experiment, see what happens. One last thing, only private funds should be used to create it.

Rhody... o:)

They had a floating island in Snow Crash. How it could actually function made me think about this yesterday. If there's one guy fishing for food, and he catches a fish, how does the island society decide what it's worth? And how would islands of different ideologies handle the situation?

This is how I perceived it:

A socialist island: Take the fish away from the fisherman, throw the fish in a pot and feed everyone.
A democratic island: Pay the guy for the fish, throw the fish in a pot and feed everyone.
A republican island: Only the people who invested in Fishing Inc. get to eat.
A libertarian island: The guy with the most money buys the fish, and eats it.

Of course, I've left out the fisherman, and how he feels about this, being jerked around by the different ideologies. And I suppose it all depends on what kind of human he is, that would determine which island he would choose.

And how old he was. A young person with a fishing pole would probably chose the libertarian island. Once he's collected lots of money, he'd move to the republican island and invest all his money. But if the Fish Market(sorry) went bad, he might want to move to the democratic island, since there's no guarantee of anything on the republican island. And of course, when he got old and senile, he'd want to live on socialist security island.

Anyways, I would like to see them build the artificial libertarian islands. It would be fun to watch.
 
  • #109
OmCheeto said:
They had a floating island in Snow Crash.

Hah ha, I'm not 100% sure that "The Raft" is a perfect analogue considering it was made by people tying a bunch of boats together as it follows ocean currents around the world.
 
  • #110
FlexGunship said:
Hah ha, I'm not 100% sure that "The Raft" is a perfect analogue considering it was made by people tying a bunch of boats together as it follows ocean currents around the world.
Actually, that seems to be the plan. And they are thinking of buying boats instead of building platforms.
The long-term plan would be to have dozens and eventually hundreds of the platforms linked together.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ountry-coast-San-Francisco.html#ixzz1W3bczavp

Ahaha, on the official site they say that power will come from deisel fuel generators!

Q: Will seasteads provide their own food/power?

A: Diesel fuel costs are reasonable to operate generators for electrical power.

http://seasteading.org/about-seasteading/frequently-asked-questions#is_it_safe
 
  • #111
Evo said:
Ahaha, on the official site they say that power will come from deisel fuel generators!
So the guy who imports the diesel, and the guy who can fix a generator will be the richest guys (and/or gals) on the island. Don't piss them off, or they will let you die (economically) by not fixing your own generator.

You simply cannot anticipate the problems that will arise. Everyone is selfish to a degree, and everyone has a sense of fairness, to a degree. These degrees depend on what is perceived around them. It seems most people will overestimate their own worth while underestimating other peoples' values and contributions. Even if they managed to create an "island" where people would actually want to go to, how large a society can it possibly support before some guy gets it in his head that everyone owes him more?

And the stuff flushed from the numerous toilets on the island...a good libertarian society should exile anyone who raises any sort of environmental concern ["our trash all goes in the water, now shut up!"--in the 80s, the Libertarian party actually carved-out an environmental platform, but a more recent quote from a Libertarian is "I can pile my own property knee-deep in plutonium waste if I choose to do so"-- but I digress--what was I saying...?]

The trashman argument was always brought up in discussions of Utopias. With Communism, he is supposed to be paid as much as the surgeon. That didn't work. In Libertarianism, or pure Capitalism, one gets paid as much money as he can get through market economy. I suspect that as soon as the floating project get big enough for 2 trashmen, a family from Rhode Island, with a name like Luciano, will come aboard and show people how to run a business.

I'll bet my house [NR] that this project never gets off the drydock. If it does I give it a few weeks before it becomes nothing more than the new Delaware Corporation mailing address, and a haven for internet gambling and porn.
 
  • #112
Chi Meson said:
So the guy who imports the diesel, and the guy who can fix a generator will be the richest guys (and/or gals) on the island. Don't piss them off, or they will let you die (economically) by not fixing your own generator.

Meh, if the importer or technician start charging too much or refuse to work, you'd better believe there will be PLENTY of other individuals willing to step in and make that profit instead.

Chi Meson said:
And the stuff flushed from the numerous toilets on the island...a good libertarian society should exile anyone who raises any sort of environmental concern

So you can't be an environmentalist libertarian? Libertarianism is a political ideology, not an environmental one. Furthermore, it's an ideology of freedom of choice; the except same individual preference for saving the environment could only be stronger when you have the freedom to act.

Chi Meson said:
The trashman argument was always brought up in discussions of Utopias. With Communism, he is supposed to be paid as much as the surgeon. That didn't work. In Libertarianism, or pure Capitalism, one gets paid as much money as he can get through market economy. I suspect that as soon as the floating project get big enough for 2 trashmen, a family from Rhode Island, with a name like Luciano, will come aboard and show people how to run a business.

If they can do it cheaper and safer, that sounds like a good idea. The competition will help drive prices down for all residents.

Chi Meson said:
I'll bet my house [NR] that this project never gets off the drydock. If it does I give it a few weeks before it becomes nothing more than the new Delaware Corporation mailing address, and a haven for internet gambling and porn.

Among other freedoms? Or just that?
 
  • #113
Why do folks constantly equate libertarianism with anarchy?
 
  • #114
mheslep said:
Why do folks constantly equate libertarianism with anarchy?

I mentioned that earlier; I can't figure out where that misconception came from! It seems to be pervasive though. It has the feeling of the anti-socialism craze that hit the U.S. during the last presidential campaign. I'm waiting for someone to accuse libertarianism of having "death panels" next.
 
  • #115
FlexGunship said:
If they can do it cheaper and safer, that sounds like a good idea. The competition will help drive prices down for all residents.
LOL, first time I've ever heard anyone say the mafia was good for competition. :-p

Anyway, I came upon this blog which has a piece on Snow Crash, OM I think you'll like this.

http://machines.pomona.edu/55-2008/node/275/

I think it's time I read it again, I lent it to Spawn and never got it back.
 
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  • #116
Evo said:
LOL, first time I've ever heard anyone say the mafia was good for competition. :-p

He said a name like "Luciano." If he's implying that Italians and Sicilians are gangsters, then that's unfortunate. I work with an Italian guy and, while I don't care much for his shoes, he's a good person.

I suspect the actual garbage tycoons on these islands would probably be from Mexico or Latin America since they have proven themselves incredibly hardworking and willing to take jobs readily that others seem not to want to take. I would expect to see the hardest working make the most money on these islands. Modern Andrew Carnegies.
 
  • #117
mheslep said:
Why do folks constantly equate libertarianism with anarchy?
There's a difference? :-p
 
  • #118
Chi Meson said:
I suspect that as soon as the floating project get big enough for 2 trashmen, a family from Rhode Island, with a name like Luciano, will come aboard and show people how to run a business.
Chi,

I know my home state is not perfect, far from it, but the Luciano's could easily come from Little Italy in New York. Our poor state has enough political corruption, financial trouble and grift now as it is. Can you please give Rhody a break ?

Rhody...
 
  • #119
rhody said:
Chi,

I know my home state is not perfect, far from it, but the Luciano's could easily come from Little Italy in New York. Our poor state has enough political corruption, financial trouble and grift now as it is. Can you please give Rhody a break ?

Rhody...

:eek: I always thought you took your name from the plant, not the state :redface:!
 
  • #120
lisab said:
:eek: I always thought you took your name from the plant, not the state :redface:!
Or as I have learned as of late from Don, there are Rhody Red CHICKENs as well. ACK !

Lisa,

Plants ? Ghost peppers, I am lost here...

Rhody... :blushing: :eek: :confused:
 
  • #121
Evo said:
There's a difference? :-p

Yes, because "Libertarianism in the UK" doesn't make a very good Sex Pistols song.
 
  • #122
rhody said:
Chi,

I know my home state is not perfect, far from it, but the Luciano's could easily come from Little Italy in New York. Our poor state has enough political corruption, financial trouble and grift now as it is. Can you please give Rhody a break ?

Rhody...

Sorry Dude,

I live right next door in Groton, CT, and I work with several people who are in RI, and the trash business is totally cornered there. It may be "legit," but it is a strong arm version of legit. Good luck to the guy who wants to start a competitive trash business there!

And Flex, I am aware of the ideology, but I have also become aware of reality. We had unbridled and unfettered capitalism here in the US a century ago. The results were the establishment of laws because the people of this country did not like it so much when all of a certain type of business was controlled by a single entity. OSHA, anti-trust laws, anti-child labor, building codes, clean-air and clean-water acts, etc are not a result of government trying to impinge on capitalism, they are the result of over-exuberence of the not-so-good aspect of capitalism.

I will totally concede that some laws go too far, and I also concede that corporations have a right to their profits. My mirthful rant above is more to point out the near silliness of this floating nation idea. With "dozens" to even "hundreds" of yachts lashed together, what kind of family will want to live there? there won't be any manufacturing going on, so businesses will all be Corporate HQ, middleman importer-exporters.

It's as naive as the hippie commune utopias dreamed up in the 60s and 70s. Even Howard Roark would laugh.
 
  • #123
FlexGunship said:
I can't figure out where that misconception came from! It seems to be pervasive though.
You were painting a picture where all of the functions of a government were privatized. If there isn't a government that is doing things, that's anarchy.
 
  • #124
Hurkyl said:
You were painting a picture where all of the functions of a government were privatized. If there isn't a government that is doing things, that's anarchy.

Well, where services were privatized. The functions of legislation, adjudication, and execution are quite separate from social services.

You can't privatize a legal system, or foreign diplomats. Nor can you privatize the writing of laws or execution thereof. Certainly you could privatize a police force, but what would it mean to have privatized courtrooms?

EDIT: Libertarianism is a long way from anarchism. Anarchism advocates the lack of a centralized government. Libertarianism advocates a centralized government designed specifically for the purpose of protecting the liberties and freedoms of individuals.
 
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  • #125
rhody said:
Or as I have learned as of late from Don, there are Rhody Red CHICKENs as well. ACK !

Lisa,

Plants ? Ghost peppers, I am lost here...

Rhody... :blushing: :eek: :confused:

Rhododendrons...often called rhodies :smile:.
 
  • #126
mheslep said:
Why do folks constantly equate libertarianism with anarchy?

bad press?

90: Approximate number of times the prefix “Anarch-“ is used in the wiki entry on Libertarianism.
 
  • #127
Chi Meson said:
...With "dozens" to even "hundreds" of yachts lashed together, what kind of family will want to live there? there won't be any manufacturing going on, so businesses will all be Corporate HQ, middleman importer-exporters.

It's as naive as the hippie commune utopias dreamed up in the 60s and 70s. Even Howard Roark would laugh.

Me too! :smile:

Howard Roark
As the protagonist and hero in the book

But it's a good thing you put that [NR] in your previous post:

http://www.nwcn.com/news/123545864.html"
...
One man told KGW from his boat that he stays on the water because shelters won't allow him to bring his dog along.
...

Freedom from anti-dog tyranny! Go dude!

(But as you said, they're dumping their trash in the river, and like https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3457560&postcount=27" ultimate libertarian society, they're pooping under our bridges.)
 
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  • #130
lisab said:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/paypal-founder-to-create-island,21205/

The island will levy an "Occasional arbitrary tax on the population just to give them something to get riled up about, which, for many libertarians, is their sole reason for existing" :smile:

:smile:

Stop it!

...

breathing again...

Ok, we need to get serious here... I was curious why no one questioned why I had no "Tea-Party" island society mentioned:

OmCheeto said:
A socialist island: Take the fish away from the fisherman, throw the fish in a pot and feed everyone.
A democratic island: Pay the guy for the fish, throw the fish in a pot and feed everyone.
A republican island: Only the people who invested in Fishing Inc. get to eat.
A libertarian island: The guy with the most money buys the fish, and eats it.

It would be a great insult if we were to marginalize them...
 

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