Biological Machinery i.e. living pumps

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    Biological Pumps
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of biological machinery, specifically the idea of creating biological pumps that could mimic the functions of the human heart. Participants explore the feasibility, limitations, and potential applications of such technology, touching on themes of regenerative capabilities and efficiency compared to traditional mechanical systems.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests the idea of a biological pump the size of a car engine that could regenerate cells and operate using nutrients instead of traditional fuels.
  • Another participant questions the feasibility of replacing a car engine with a biological model, highlighting the complexity of nutrient distribution and maintenance in biological systems.
  • A clarification is made that the intention is not to replace a combustion engine but to create a biological pump that is larger than a heart.
  • Concerns are raised about the accuracy of claims regarding the heart's fluid output compared to a household faucet, with some participants providing specific figures for comparison.
  • One participant emphasizes the speculative nature of predicting the future of biological machinery, while noting current examples of biotechnology and regenerative medicine that utilize biological systems.
  • Another participant expresses skepticism about the efficiency of biological systems compared to traditional pumps, citing energy costs and infrastructure challenges as significant obstacles to widespread adoption.
  • There is a correction regarding the measurement of blood pressure, clarifying that it is typically measured in millimeters of mercury rather than psi.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views, with some agreeing on the potential of biological machinery while others highlight significant limitations and challenges. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the feasibility and practicality of creating such systems.

Contextual Notes

Participants note various limitations, including the inefficiency of biological systems, the complexity of nutrient delivery, and the need for new infrastructure to support biological pumps. There are also unresolved questions about the accuracy of specific claims regarding fluid output and pressure.

SmokeyMTNJim
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In my exercise physiology class we are discussing the amazing work that the human heart performs over a lifetime, even over a single day. My textbook says that the fluid output of the heart exceeds that of a household faucet turned wide open (Katch, McArdle, Katch). With the invention of the 3-D printers I wonder what are the limitation to making biological machines that have the ability to regenerate cells. A simple example would be a 2-chamber heart like pump only the size of a car engine. Instead of electricity or fossil fuel a hose would feed it nutrients.
Is this outlandish? has anyone heard of any recent projects in this area? what are some limitations you see?
 
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I'm not sure entirely what you're getting at, but are you talking about replacing a car engine with a model similar to that of a heart? Because while I know very little about the engine of a car, I don't think the two would be interchangeable. Physiology is only one facet of the chemical, mechanical and biological processes of the human body. If you were to create a design of this nature, there would be a multitude of things you'd need to consider, such as: the nutrients being absorbed and distributed to the other parts of the car to function, the essential "upkeep" for the car to function (this is done with the homeostatic processes in the human body), and what would constitute as nutrients for a car. Such a design would be too complicated to just simply replace the internal combustion engine.
 
I did not mean anything of that sort, replacing an actual combustion engine with a biological machine. Rather replace an existing pump with a biological pump. The car reference was just thinking of making the pump larger -the size of an engine not the size of a heart.
 
SmokeyMTNJim said:
My textbook says that the fluid output of the heart exceeds that of a household faucet turned wide open (Katch, McArdle, Katch).
That's a bit of an exaggeration -- high by almost a factor of two. A standard faucet is 9.5 l/min (in the US anyway, as a matter of code) whereas the heart averages 5.5 and peaks at about 8 l/min. In addition, the pressure available at a faucet is a good 10-20 times what a human heart can produce.
 
russ_watters said:
That's a bit of an exaggeration -- high by almost a factor of two. A standard faucet is 9.5 l/min (in the US anyway, as a matter of code) whereas the heart averages 5.5 and peaks at about 8 l/min. In addition, the pressure available at a faucet is a good 10-20 times what a human heart can produce.

I appreciate your response and believe you may be correct about fluid output, but so far as pressure is concerned that is an exaggeration as well, much greater one though. Normal resting blood pressure 120 psi, standard interior faucet 40-60psi.

Still I have yet to receive a comment really pertaining to my question. I take this to mean I did a poor job wording my thoughts. I am primarily concerned with the future possibilities of biological machinery that has some - not all the qualities of living organisms - e.g. the ability to regenerate after wear and tear being the main, and possibly that to grow in response to stresses.
 
We can't know what the future has in store so speculating can be pointless. However there are plenty of examples of biological machinery in use now and those currently under development in labs. Nothing akin to a biological engine but there's recombinant DNA technology (used to manufacture proteins using genetically modified bacteria; the basis for insulin production for diabetics), viral production of wires, synbio vanillin production and the whole field of regenerative medicine looking to grow human tissues for transplant. The EU has a term encompassing biotechniology for manufacturing (amongst other things): The Knowledge Based Bio Economy. You could look into that for other ideas of projects that are looking at using biological systems for commercial products. Aside from the medicine aspect it's all using biological systems for manufacturing, generally not the end product itself. But it's as close an answer to your question as I think can be given at this stage.
 
SmokeyMTNJim said:
I appreciate your response and believe you may be correct about fluid output, but so far as pressure is concerned that is an exaggeration as well, much greater one though. Normal resting blood pressure 120 psi, standard interior faucet 40-60psi.

If the human blood were at 120 psi you would burst like an overinflated tyre. Where did you get that figure from? It's almost an order of magnitude out.

Still I have yet to receive a comment really pertaining to my question. I take this to mean I did a poor job wording my thoughts. I am primarily concerned with the future possibilities of biological machinery that has some - not all the qualities of living organisms - e.g. the ability to regenerate after wear and tear being the main, and possibly that to grow in response to stresses.

My unresearched thoughts:
The single greatest obstacle is that biological systems are generally inefficient, muscles are around 20% efficient, electric motors can be 98%.
eg a biological pump uses 5 times as much energy to pump a given flow & head. Over the life of a pump energy costs are usually many times greater than the initial cost of the pump so 'self healing' has little appeal when the efficiency is low.

Most traditional pumps are much simpler than the heart. Traditional pumps can last for decades.
electric power is easy to transmit. Trucking or pumping 'nutrient juice' to industry will require new infrastructure and greater transmission losses.
We'd need to commit massive amounts of land to nutrient juice production (see "ILUC")
We'd still need traditional pumps for toxic & corrosive fluids.

I'm not saying there are no uses for biological machines but I don't think they'll ever be in widespread use.
 
billy_joule said:
If the human blood were at 120 psi you would burst like an overinflated tyre. Where did you get that figure from? It's almost an order of magnitude out.
That was a units error: blood pressure is measured in milimeters of mercury.
 

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