"Black holes can only get bigger" - huh?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of black holes and their size, particularly addressing the claim that "black holes can only get bigger." Participants explore the implications of Hawking radiation, the second law of thermodynamics, and the nature of black hole mergers, questioning the consistency of these ideas with the notion of black holes potentially evaporating over time.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that tiny black holes can evaporate completely due to Hawking radiation, which seems to contradict the idea that black holes can only grow larger.
  • Others argue that while black holes grow over time, the effects of Hawking radiation are negligible in the current universe, suggesting that black holes primarily increase in size.
  • A participant points out that the claim about black holes only getting bigger is derived from the second law of thermodynamics, which they argue is misrepresented in popular articles.
  • Some participants discuss the implications of black hole mergers, noting that the resulting black hole is larger than the sum of the original black holes, while questioning whether multiple black holes could emerge from such events.
  • There are claims that the second law of thermodynamics does not strictly apply in the same way when quantum effects are considered, allowing for the possibility of black holes decreasing in size.
  • One participant raises the idea that without a unification of quantum mechanics and general relativity, it is difficult to make definitive statements about the behavior of small black holes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the growth and potential evaporation of black holes. There is no consensus on the implications of Hawking radiation or the interpretation of the second law of thermodynamics in this context.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the limitations of popular articles in accurately conveying complex scientific concepts, noting that these simplifications can lead to misunderstandings about black hole behavior.

  • #61
Fra said:
I am guessing that what Peter means is that in these the rules suggest that only "published speculations" should be discussed? not becase they are necessarily right but because it at least prevents random personal and pedestrian speculations from degrading forum quality.
I take care about my posts not degrading a particular thread, especially if mods are involved. Peter has not given a reference to his speculation, and in such situations I conclude this is fine in this context.
 
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  • #62
Fra said:
I am guessing that what Peter means is that in these the rules suggest that only "published speculations" should be discussed?
And even that only in the Beyond the Standard Model forum. Which this isn't.

Granted, any quantum discussion of black holes is kind of borderline here, since we don't have an established theory of quantum gravity. But for purposes of this thread, we are discussing the closest thing to a "standard" model of black hole evaporation, the model originally proposed by Hawking. It's good to be aware that there are issues that have been raised with this model and that there are other proposed models, but if we really want to get into a detailed discussion of those issues we probably need to start a separate thread in the BTSM forum.

Fra said:
not becase they are necessarily right but because it at least prevents random personal and pedestrian speculations from degrading forum quality.
Maintaining the signal to noise ratio of PF is one reason, yes. There are at least two others: first, PF is not a platform for conducting original research, and personal speculations/theories that aren't in the published literature are original research; and second, the published literature at least provides a common basis for discussion.
 

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