Bond lengths in Cycloocta - 1,3,6 - triene

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the bond lengths in the compound Cycloocta-1,3,6-triene, focusing on the relationships between various bond lengths and the factors influencing them, such as resonance and conjugation. Participants explore theoretical aspects and implications of bond character, particularly in the context of double bonds and their interactions.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the ability to predict inequalities between bond lengths and challenge assumptions of equality.
  • There is a discussion about the differences between the double bond between C6 and C7 compared to other double bonds in the compound, with implications for bond lengths.
  • Some participants suggest that the geometry of the molecule and the orientation of bonds may affect repulsion and bond strength.
  • One participant mentions the importance of resonance structures in understanding bond lengths and their variations.
  • There is a proposal that extra ring strain due to double bonds could lead to unequal π bond lengths.
  • Some participants discuss the concept of conjugation and its effect on bond character, suggesting that conjugated bonds have partial double bond character compared to fully double bonds.
  • A later reply indicates that symmetry can help determine equal bond lengths between certain bonds in the molecule.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the predictability of bond lengths and the factors influencing them, particularly regarding resonance and conjugation. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives on the relationships between the bond lengths.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the need to consider resonance and effective bond order when discussing bond lengths, indicating that assumptions about bond character may vary based on the specific context of the compound.

baldbrain
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Homework Statement


Which is the correct statement about the given compound?
(a) Bond length between C2 and C3 = Bond length between C5 and C6
(b) Bond length between C1 and C2 = Bond length between C6 and C7
(c) Bond length between C6 and C7 < Bond length between C3 and C4
(d) Bond length between C2 and C3 < Bond length between C3 and C4

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The Attempt at a Solution


Well, since I can't predict anything about the inequalities, I think it's (a) as well as (b). But their answer is (c). But I don't understand how?
 
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Why can't you predict anything about the inequalities? Why do you assume untrue equalities?
What is the difference between the double bond between 6 and 7 and those between 1 and 2, and 3 and 4? What effect would this have on bond lengths?
 
HPPAS said:

Homework Statement


Which is the correct statement about the given compound?
(a) Bond length between C2 and C3 = Bond length between C5 and C6
(b) Bond length between C1 and C2 = Bond length between C6 and C7
(c) Bond length between C6 and C7 < Bond length between C3 and C4
(d) Bond length between C2 and C3 < Bond length between C3 and C4

View attachment 204214

The Attempt at a Solution


Well, since I can't predict anything about the inequalities, I think it's (a) as well as (b). But their answer is (c). But I don't understand how?
What academic discipline is the source of this question?

In addition to knowing how bond length tends to differ for double bonds compared to single bonds in some qualitative way, it looks like you also need to take symmetry into account.
 
mjc123 said:
Why can't you predict anything about the inequalities? Why do you assume untrue equalities?
What is the difference between the double bond between 6 and 7 and those between 1 and 2, and 3 and 4? What effect would this have on bond lengths?
That bond is vertical (w.r.t to other double bonds).
So does that mean that there is min. repulsion between C6 & C7 (or min. strain on that bond) and hence that bond is shorter and stronger?
 
SammyS said:
What academic discipline is the source of this question?
12th.
We've just done the Resonance theory, Hyperconjugation etc. & properties and reactions of benzene, phenol & haloarenes etc.
So I know nothing about cycloalkenes
 
HPPAS said:
So does that mean that there is min. repulsion between C6 & C7 (or min. strain on that bond) and hence that bond is shorter and stronger?
I don't think that repulsion is the way to go.

My guess is that you have covered π conjugation. There is something from that that you can apply here to get more information about the nature of the different double bonds in the molecule.
 
HPPAS said:
That bond is vertical (w.r.t to other double bonds).
So does that mean that there is min. repulsion between C6 & C7 (or min. strain on that bond) and hence that bond is shorter and stronger?
That the bond is depicted as being vertical is not relevant.

Look at the two bonds in each direction from the bond of interest. Then answer:
mjc123 said:
What is the difference between the double bond between 6 and 7 and those between 1 and 2, and 3 and 4? What effect would this have on bond lengths?
.
 
SammyS said:
Look at the two bonds in each direction from the bond of interest.

The p orbitals of C6 & C7 are the most conjugated, seeing the geometry of the molecule?
 
Sorry I have time to post recently. So, as I said, are the p orbitals of C6 & C7 most conjugated?
 
  • #10
What would they be conjugated with?
 
  • #11
Hey everybody, sorry there wasn't any activity on this for quite long. I think that the extra ring strain caused due to the double bonds is the reason for unequal π bond lengths.
 
  • #13
  • #14
HPPAS said:
That didn't give me a clue. Of course, they affect bond lengths. But I couldn't predict anything.
Then start by drawing the p orbitals. What π bonds are conjugated?
 
  • #15
I got it. I looked up the compound's PubChem CID and looked at it's 3D conformer in different ways (Interact button). If we look fron the appropriate point of view, not only is C6=C7<C3=C4 but the C1=C2 bond length is equal to C3=C4 bond length.
 
  • #16
DrClaude said:
Then start by drawing the p orbitals. What π bonds are conjugated?
C1=C2 & C3=C4.
 
  • #17
baldbrain said:
the C1=C2 bond length is equal to C3=C4 bond length.
That you can figure out quickly by symmetry.

baldbrain said:
C1=C2 & C3=C4.
Yes. Since these bonds are conjugated, how does it affect bond length? (Hint: think effective bond order.)
 
  • #18
Oh, I get it. The conjugated bonds have only partial double bond character while the C6=C7 has complete double bond character.
Hence, effective bond order greater, stronger and shorter is the bond.
 
  • #19
baldbrain said:
Oh, I get it. The conjugated bonds have only partial double bond character while the C6=C7 has complete double bond character.
Hence, effective bond order greater, stronger and shorter is the bond.
Correct.
 
  • #20
DrClaude said:
Correct.
Thanks.
 

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