Cable that holds the elevator got disconnected

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    Cable Elevator
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the hypothetical scenario of an elevator cable disconnecting while a person is inside, exploring the implications of jumping just before impact. Participants examine the physics of free fall, terminal velocity, and the potential outcomes of such an event.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that jumping at the right moment could reduce the impact speed, but others argue that human legs cannot generate enough force to make a significant difference.
  • There is a discussion about the possibility of the elevator reaching terminal velocity and how that might affect the occupants, with some proposing that the air pressure beneath the elevator could slow its fall.
  • Concerns are raised about the effectiveness of safety mechanisms in elevators, with one participant sharing a personal experience of an elevator malfunction that involved safety features activating.
  • Several participants note that in a free-fall situation, occupants would also be in free fall, leading to questions about the feasibility of jumping and its impact on survival.
  • One participant mentions the need to consider various parameters, such as the size and weight of the elevator, to assess the likelihood of survival in such a scenario.
  • There are references to skydiving experiences and the injuries that can occur in falls, suggesting that while death may not be guaranteed, severe injuries are likely.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the likelihood of an elevator falling freely without safety features engaging, questioning the premise of the scenario.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether jumping would significantly affect the outcome of a fall in an elevator. Multiple competing views remain regarding the physics of the situation and the effectiveness of safety mechanisms.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include assumptions about the elevator's design, the conditions of the fall, and the physiological responses of the occupants. The discussion does not resolve the complexities of the scenario or the variables involved.

  • #31
Michael D. Sewell, even if she did way 20 tons, she'll fall just as fast as you. in fact, she'll proberly fall slower, due to less areodynamic ability.

and i forgot about the for ever action there's an equal and opersite reaction. so if the lift is falling at 60 mph you need to jump up at 120 mph.
 
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  • #32
Gara,
Maybe the 20 tons was a bit of an exageration. I have broad shoulders and a slender build, consequently my terminal velocity is about 10 MPH or so slower than most of the other jumpers. Most of the jumpers that have a similar build wear weights and very slick, tight jump suits. Heavy people generally have a ratio of weight/surface area that is greater than thin people, so they fall a lot faster. One time we had a bunch of weight lifters(obvious steroid cases) show up. Boy, they really had a high rate of fall! The jumpmasters had a difficult time keeping up with them. All of them "hammered in" on landing too.
A simple "rule of thumb" that we give students with respect to freefall times is: ten seconds for the first 1000 feet, five additional seconds for each remaining 1000 feet.
I hope this gives you a better understanding of weight, gravity and aerodynamic drag. -Mike

P.S. Hitting the ceiling of the elevator going 120 MPH doesn't strike me(pardon the pun) as being a viable alternative.
 
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  • #33
well the 20 ton metal and an egg would fall and hit the ground on the same time

but i don't think it would happen cause of the air resistance
if there wasnt they would probably land at the same time
 
  • #34
aye that's what I am trying to tell him. yet he seems to believe heavyer things fall faster. o_O

and yes, jumping up at 120 mph would stop you from dieing from the fall of the lift, but presents a new, head smoosh style, problem.
 
  • #35
What one believes or does not believe has no effect on the laws of physics. If by metal you mean a sphere of solid steel, you are wrong. Steel has a density of 490 Pounds per cubic foot. The density of an egg is not much different than the density of water(62.4 pounds per cubic foot). You can easily check this by placing an egg in a pan of water. What you are missing here is we call in ballistics SECTIONAL DENSITY. I assure you that a block of steel has a much higher terminal velocity than an egg, and would go past it in free fall like a pay car by a tramp.

Acceleration as a function of time
a = g(e^-bt/m)

b = mg/terminal velocity

Integrate this and you will get instantaneous velocity.
Integrate again and you will get the displacement.
-Mike
 
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  • #36
Originally posted by Gara
and yes, jumping up at 120 mph would stop you from dieing from the fall of the lift, but presents a new, head smoosh style, problem.

unless you had exceptional timing! 7..6..5..4..3..2..ONE!

Cliff
 
  • #37
if you jumped up a lift at 120mph, you have to remember the roof of the lift is about 7 foot high. unless you can slow down after the very moment you jump, you're going to hit the roof :)
 
  • #38
But if you jumped up so that you reached 120MPH relative to the elevator right at the moment of impact, your velocity would be zero relative to the ground.

Besides the roof maybe hitting you as it decelerates (assuming it decelerates differently from the floor as the elevator buckles from the impact) you would be, in effect, simply standing on a crumbling floor. And if you have the timing plus incredible strength (and luck) like that, you should run out and buy a lottery ticket, maybe just after kissing the ground and saying a couple prayers...:smile:

Cliff
 
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  • #39
then what about if you weren't in the elevator but on top of it. what happens if you jump off it just before it hits the ground? would you survive?
 
  • #40
One more time.

Jumping will not save you. If you could jump in a free fall (it is not clear to me how you would do this!)you will not change your final velocity. In fact, if the elevator where being slowed by some mechanism which would then enable you to jump, you would hit the ground at a HIGHER speed then if you had stayed with the elevator. This because during the time of your jump the elevator will have fallen some distance, you will have to fall that extra distance and will have a longer time of acceleration, thus a HIGHER VELOCITY when you finally hit the ground. How will this help you?

Consider this, if the elevator is going down at its normal rate you can jump up and down as much as you like, each time you will land back on the elevator, since the elevator is moving you will have to be falling FASTER then the elevator in order to catch up to it after you jump. This will be true even if the brakes fail and elevator is accelerating at some rate less then g.

So in summary now only will jumping not help it will only serve to INCREASE the speed at which you hit bottom.
 
  • #41
i don't think so. if the lift is falling at 30 mph, and you jump up at a speed so you are now at 0 mph, you will hang there and then gravity will take over again, and you will fall, but for only the distance between you and the floor, which if timed right, should be about 1 foot.

but i must say again, you have a high chance of living by staying in the lift because at the bottom of lift shafts are springs and dampers to make for a soft landing in the event of a lift cable failing.
 
  • #42
Originally posted by Gara
i don't think so.

Integral,
Some peoples haids is hardern chinese arithmetic. Godspeed, good luck, and god bless.
-Mike

P.S. Run away! Run away!
 
  • #43
i don't think so. if the lift is falling at 30 mph, and you jump up at a speed so you are now at 0 mph, you will hang there and then gravity will take over again, and you will fall, but for only the distance between you and the floor, which if timed right, should be about 1 foot.

Gara, Gara, Gara...

It is not your speed relative to the elevator which is the problem. The only speed that matters is your speed with respect to the ground. What looks like a jump inside the elevator is not seen as a jump from the ground outside the elevator. If the passengers speed with respect to the elevator were of significance then why jump, you are not falling at all, but standing very peacefully on the elevator floor.
 
  • #44
I do believe Integral is wrong here. Assuming you had a super human pair of legs - You could time a jump with the proper force to where it would seem as if nothing happened. Thats of course if the elevator doesn't bounce on impact.

The elevator will eventually attain terminal velocity due to air pressure and whatever drag it may encounter. You on the other hand are not subject to these effects, and will fall at the rate specified by gravity alone. You could have a scale in the elevator and find that you weigh at least something - be it one pound, or maybe even ten. Whatever the number - You can push off of the elevator. It's just a matter of transferring the energy from you to the elevator. The elevator will get a sudden boost in speed, and if timed right with the proper force - you will only hear a very loud noise.
 
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  • #45
Assuming you had a super human pair of legs

And if pigs had wings they could fly.

Even with a super human (how stupid can it get!)legs, you will not change the speed at the time of impact. As I said in a previous post (Did you bother reading them?) if the elevator is not in a free fall situation, a jump, ANY JUMP will only serve to increase your speed at impact. There is NO way that you will hit any slower then the speed of the elevator. Remember that old rule, any thing which goes up must come down. You can jump but you have to land.
 
  • #46
Integral
You are flat out without a doubt ---- wrong!

I suggest you start reading some books, and come back when you got it figured out, so you can say you had it flat out without a doubt ---- wrong!.

Next thing yer going to tell me is that if I fired a bullet straight up in a falling elevator - It would never get out of the barrel. Your fantasy world does not exist.
 
  • #47
Originally posted by Integral
And if pigs had wings they could fly.
Which means they might survive the elevator crash unharmed as opposed to the jumping humans.
 
  • #48
Which means they might survive the elevator crash unharmed as opposed to the jumping humans.
A flying pig would have to flap those wings double time at ground zero, but yeah - A flying pig could pull it off too if their wings could handle the stress. How much stress can a flying pigs wings handle anyway?
 
  • #49
Originally posted by UltraPi1
Integral
You are flat out without a doubt ---- wrong!

I suggest you start reading some books, and come back when you got it figured out, so you can say you had it flat out without a doubt ---- wrong!.

Next thing yer going to tell me is that if I fired a bullet straight up in a falling elevator - It would never get out of the barrel. Your fantasy world does not exist.

Physics please?

Can you keep it close to the topic?

Back up your words with physics or do not post. Further off topic noise will simply be deleted.
 
  • #50
Originally posted by Integral
Gara, Gara, Gara...

It is not your speed relative to the elevator which is the problem. The only speed that matters is your speed with respect to the ground. What looks like a jump inside the elevator is not seen as a jump from the ground outside the elevator. If the passengers speed with respect to the elevator were of significance then why jump, you are not falling at all, but standing very peacefully on the elevator floor.

Even when your body is in the act of flying upwards while jumping inside of the falling elevator, this speed is simply subtracted from the speed that the elevator is falilng,, so you would ultimately still be falling down very fast.
 
  • #51
Even when your body is in the act of flying upwards while jumping inside of the falling elevator, this speed is simply subtracted from the speed that the elevator is falilng,, so you would ultimately still be falling down very fast.
This what I was trying to get across to Integral. I said if you were super human - you could negate that speed entirely. He seems to think otherwise. In fact he insist you would hit ground zero faster than the elevator.
In the real world - you would be in deep dodo ... no question about it. The original question of the thread was whether jumping could make a difference.
Under the right conditions - In the real world - It could.
 
  • #52
Mr. Ultra pi,all leg muscle and no brain, at least after you mash your head into the ceiling of a falling elevator. Yes, if you could jump with a velocity equal to that of the falling elevator there would be a point at which you would have zero velocity with the outside world, unfortunately that would probably mean that you will meet the ceiling of elevator with a relative velocity twice that (very nearly at least) at which the elevator is traveling. I thought the point of the question was can you save yourself by jumping. The answer remains no, you have simply added another way of dying.
 
  • #53
that's what I've been saying! IF you had super strenth you could do it.

and i acually think you won't hit your head, if you jump up at the same speed the lift is going down, asuming as you hit the apex, (0 mph) the lift hits the bottom and stops moving, then you just free fall the tiny distance to the floor.

i suggest that since this is all about IF, it should be moved to the thory section.
 
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  • #54
Mr. Ultra pi,all leg muscle and no brain, at least after you mash your head into the ceiling of a falling elevator.
A properly timed jump with the appropriate force, and you would not hit the ceiling. In fact you wouldn't have to leave the floor. All you have to do is equal the speed of the falling elevator, thereby canceling out. This is all under optimal conditions mind you. Wrong again.

I thought the point of the question was can you save yourself by jumping.
And I have said - Under the right conditions - it could make the difference ... however small it is. Even without super human legs. I said at the beginning of this thread ... Parameters would have to be set to answer that question. How big is the elevator? How much does it weigh? How well sealed is the shaft? How much space is there between the elevator exterior to the shaft walls?
 
  • #55
A properly timed jump with the appropriate force, and you would not hit the ceiling. In fact you wouldn't have to leave the floor. All you have to do is equal the speed of the falling elevator, thereby canceling out. This is all under optimal conditions mind you. Wrong again


This is getting to be pure nonsense, where do you get this stuff from?

If your feet never leave the floor of the elevator then you are traveling the same speed as the elevator .. going DOWN! If you wish to cancel the speed of the elevator you must jump UP, now the only thing you have to push against is the FLOOR of the elevator. If you apply a force to the FLOOR you will accelerate with respect to that floor. So applying a force to the floor and staying at rest wrt that same floor is nonsense.

What is important here is your speed wrt to the ground, if you can hit the ground with speed approximately 0 then you will be fine. This means you must have a velocity wrt the elevator of V up.

Now a good question is what is a fatal velocity, is a 20m drop fatal? Maybe not, but I would not want to try it. A bit of computation shows that

v = \sqrt {2gx}
This gives a value of ~20m/s for a 20m fall. It is humanly impossible to cancel a fall at this rate. Unless you are a pretty good athlete a standing jump of .5m is pretty good, to jump .5m you need an initial velocity of about 2.25m/s.

Needless to say even for 10m/s fall a perfectly timed jump up at 2.25m/s will not help.
 
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  • #56
This is getting to be pure nonsense, where do you get this stuff from?
It would seem you're going to fight this one all the way to the ground. Which is about where you got to make yer jump. I might as well call you pig headed .. with wings of course. You would hit the ceiling if you didn't time your jump. If the elevator were dropping at 70MPH and you made your jump 30 feet before you hit ground, and you were capable of jumping fast enough and hard enough to cancel the fall. You would hit the ceiling in the neighborhood of 70 MPH - (propably faster).

You would likely make your jump in the vicinity of 3 feet off the ground. Using your super human legs mind you. At the same instant you finish with the appropriate jump - The elevator hits ground. All things perfect - All things canceled. It would be as if nothing happened. Accept for the very loud boom at ground zero. Since the elevator is no longer dropping - there's no need to worry about the ceiling because you are dropping at 0 MPH in relation to the ground due to your canceling jump, and the elevator is dropping at 0 MPH because it hit ground.

Now a good question is what is a fatal velocity, is a 20m drop fatal? Maybe not, but I would not want to try it. A bit of computation shows that
Yes ... that would be a good question regarding a personal drop in a free falling elevator. The most important parameters to consider would be the weight of the elevator, the surface area of the floor, how much space is there between the outside walls of the elevator and the shaft walls, is the shaft sealed well .. below the elevator? I would get in an elevator that had one eighth inch clearance between the exterior walls of an elevator and the shaft walls --- in a free fall. Providing there was no escape for the air below the elevator other than the one eighth clearance. It could very well be used as a ride at an amusement park.

Now to the real world elevator. How fast will it drop? This can't be set without setting parameters for it. I'm sure there are some elevators out there where if all the safety installs failed. You could expect a decrease in velocity toward the end of your ride before you hit ground, and there are some elevators out there where you could kiss your ass goodbye in a complete system failure. Now should you ever run into this kind of situation - I say jump ... Go ahead and jump, because you aint got time for love in an elevator. :-)
 
  • #57
I assume someone is atop on a block of metal that is freefalling towards an airless planet the mass of Earth. The block and the person has masses m_B and m_P, which are negligible compared to the mass of the planet. So, from

conservation of momentum

(m_P + m_B)v = m_Pv_P + m_Bv_B

and conservation of energy (potential energy can be ignored as this is instanteous change of energy)

(m_P + m_B)v^2 = m_Pv_P^2 + m_Bv_B^2

where v, v_P, v_B are respectively the initial velocity, the velocity of the person at the moment of final velocity change caused by the jump, and the velocity of the block at the moment of final velocity change caused by the jump.

Solve for v_P:

v_P = \frac{(m_P + m_B)v^2 - m_Bv_B^2}{(m_P + m_B)v - m_Bv_B}

Let

v_B = \gamma v

and

\kappa = \frac{m_B}{m_P + m_B}\gamma

The equation for v_P can be rewritten:

v_P = v\frac{1-\kappa\gamma}{1-\kappa}

It is now evident that by some judicious combination of values for \kappa and \gamma we can have any value for v_P including escape velocity away from the planet.
 
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  • #58
Integral is fully correct. Even if you could jump, and even if there were no ceiling in the way, you would go up, and eventually land with the same velocity the elevator landed. All you could do is delay the impact slightly. You can't beat the conservation of energy.

- Warren
 
  • #59
First of all, in a properly designed elevator, this is simply not a problem, so why are we even thinking about elevator design? Remember the original question, it concerns a falling elevator in which the passenger is in danger (I assume this 'cus otherwise there is no question).

Therefore we have an elevator falling at a dangerously high speed, particulars of the elevator are not important. What is this speed and how does it compare to the speeds which a jumping human can hope to generate? By my estimates "dangerously fast" will be anything from about 10m/s up. 10m/s sec is equivalent to a free fall drop of 5m (This is a survivable drop, but I personally would not want to jump from 5m onto concrete (water is ok!)as serious injury is possible (even in water if you hit wrong!).

Ok, now to completely cancel the elevators velocity a human would have to jump up wards at precisely the right time with a velocity equal and opposite to that of the elevator. How many people do you know that can do a standing vertical jump of 5m? It is virtually impossible to cancel the velocity of even a survivable fall rate.

Now on top of this comes an additional problem, when to jump, in order to cancel the elevators velocity you must have the maximum upward velocity at the instant the elevator hits the ground, now the million dollar question is... How do you know when the elevator is going to hit? This is information that is not available, so I am right back to my origin statement... Jumping will not help. Simply because it is not enough and impossible to time correctly.
 
  • #60
And, to reiterate my point, even if you could jump up from the floor of the elevator at 10 m/s and thus avoid being killed by the fall, you would eventually land at 10 m/s anyway, and die just a short time later.

- Warren
 

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