Calculating Lie Derivatives for Tensors & Vectors

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Discussion Overview

The discussion focuses on calculating Lie derivatives for tensors and vectors, exploring their definitions and relationships to covariant derivatives. Participants examine the mathematical formulations for various types of tensors and vectors, including rank two tensors, and seek to clarify the distinctions between Lie derivatives and covariant derivatives.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents definitions for covariant derivatives of scalars, vectors, and rank two tensors, seeking to extend these to Lie derivatives.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the Lie derivative differs fundamentally from the covariant derivative and provides a general structure for the Lie derivative of a tensor.
  • A subsequent post offers specific formulations for the Lie derivatives of vectors and tensors, inviting verification from others.
  • Further elaboration includes the application of Leibniz' rule to the Lie derivative of a tensor product, illustrating how it preserves contractions.
  • Participants discuss the nature of the vector field involved in the Lie derivative, clarifying that it is a vector field on a manifold and explaining its role in generating flows along integral curves.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There is no consensus on the best approach to express Lie derivatives in terms of covariant derivatives, as participants present differing formulations and interpretations. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the most effective method for calculating Lie derivatives.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the importance of understanding the underlying structures when discussing Lie derivatives versus covariant derivatives, highlighting that the definitions depend on the context of vector fields and tensor fields.

Arman777
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I am writing a code to calculate the Lie Derivatives, and so far, I have defined the Covariant derivative

1) for scalar function;

$$\nabla_a\phi \equiv \partial_a\phi~~(1)$$

2) for vectors;

$$\nabla_bV^a = \partial_bV^a + \Gamma^a_{bc}V^c~~(2)$$
$$\nabla_cV_a = \partial_cV_a - \Gamma^b_{ca}V_b~~(3)$$

3) for rank two tensors;

$$\nabla_cT^{ab} = \partial_cT^{ab} + \Gamma^a_{cd}T^{db} + \Gamma^b_{cd}T^{ad}~~(4)$$
$$\nabla_cT^a_b = \partial_cT^a_b + \Gamma^a_{cd}T^d_b - \Gamma^d_{cb}T^a_d~~(5)$$
$$\nabla_cT_{ab} = \partial_cT_{ab} - \Gamma^d_{ca}T_{db} - \Gamma^d_{cb}T_{ad}~~(6)$$

Similarly, I want to obtain a Lie Derivative of a scalar function, a vector (covariant and contravariant), and a tensor with rank 2.

From some research, I have found that.

1) for scalar function;

$$L_X\phi = X^{a}\partial_a\phi$$

So my questions is how can I write

$$L_XV^a, L_XV_a, L_XT^{ab}, L_XT^a_b, L_XT_{ab}$$ in terms of Eqns. ##(2), (3), (4), (5), (6)##, If possible. If it's not possible how can I write them in general.
 
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The Lie derivative is fundamentally different from the covariant derivative defined by a connection and it does not rely on any underlying structure (such as a connection). The general structure of the Lie derivative of a tensor in terms of components is
$$
\mathcal L_X T^{a_1a_2\ldots}_{b_1b_2\ldots} = X^c \partial_c T^{a_1a_2\ldots}_{b_1b_2\ldots} - T^{ca_2\ldots}_{b_1b_2\ldots} \partial_c X^{a_1} - T^{a_1c\ldots}_{b_1b_2\ldots} \partial_c X^{a_2} - \ldots + T^{a_1a_2\ldots}_{cb_2\ldots} \partial_{b_1} X^c + T^{a_1a_2\ldots}_{b_1c\ldots} \partial_{b_2} X^c + \ldots
$$
 
I have found these,
$$L_XV^a = X^c\partial_cV^a - V^c\partial_cX^a$$
$$L_XV_b = X^c\partial_cV_b + V_c\partial_bX^c$$
$$L_XT^{ab} = X^c\partial_cT^{ab} - T^{cb}\partial_cX^a - T^{ac}\partial_cX^b$$
$$L_XT^a_b = X^c\partial_cT^a_b - T^c_b\partial_cX^a + T^a_c\partial_bX^c$$
$$L_XT_{ab} = X^c\partial_cT_{ab} + T_{cb}\partial_aX^c + T_{ac}\partial_bX^c$$

Can someone check please
 
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For sake of an example, consider a ##(1,1)## tensor ##\mathbf{T}##. The Lie derivative ##L_{\mathbf{X}}## satisfies Leibniz' rule, hence\begin{align*}
L_{\mathbf{X}} ( \mathbf{T} \otimes \mathbf{e}^a \otimes \mathbf{e}_b ) = L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{T} \otimes \mathbf{e}^a \otimes \mathbf{e}_b + \mathbf{T} \otimes L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{e}^a \otimes \mathbf{e}_b + \mathbf{T} \otimes \mathbf{e}^a \otimes L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{e}_b
\end{align*}for arbitrary basis vectors ##\mathbf{e}^a## and ##\mathbf{e}_b##. Now contract over all four positions; recall that ##L_{\mathbf{X}}## preserves contractions.\begin{align*}

(\dagger) \quad L_{\mathbf{X}} {T^a}_b &= {(L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{T})^a}_b + {T^{i}}_j \langle L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{e}^a, \mathbf{e}_i \rangle \langle \mathbf{e}^j, \mathbf{e}_b \rangle + {T^{i}}_j \langle \mathbf{e}^a, \mathbf{e}_i \rangle \langle \mathbf{e}^j, L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{e}_b \rangle \\

&= {(L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{T})^a}_b + {T^{i}}_b \langle L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{e}^a, \mathbf{e}_i \rangle + {T^{a}}_j \langle \mathbf{e}^j, L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{e}_b \rangle

\end{align*}By definition the Lie derivative acts on functions as ##L_{\mathbf{X}} f = \mathbf{X}f## hence in coordinate basis ##L_{\mathbf{X}} {T^a}_b = X^i \dfrac{\partial {T^a}_b}{\partial x^i}##. Furthermore, for vectors ##\mathbf{Y} \in T_p## and covectors ##\boldsymbol{\eta} \in T^*_p## we have*\begin{align*}
(L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{Y})^i &= \dfrac{\partial Y^i}{\partial x^j} X^j - \dfrac{\partial X^i}{\partial x^j} Y^j \\

(L_{\mathbf{X}} \boldsymbol{\eta})_i &= \dfrac{\partial \eta_i}{\partial x^j} X^j + \dfrac{\partial X^j}{\partial x^i} \eta_j
\end{align*}which imply that for a coordinate basis ##\left(L_{\mathbf{X}} \dfrac{\partial}{\partial x^i} \right)^j = -\dfrac{\partial X^j}{\partial x^i}## and ##(L_{\mathbf{X}} dx^i)_j = \dfrac{\partial X^i}{\partial x^j}##. Returning to equation ##(\dagger)##,\begin{align*}
X^i \dfrac{\partial {T^a}_b}{\partial x^i} &= {(L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{T})^a}_b + {T^{i}}_b \dfrac{\partial X^a}{\partial x^i} - {T^{a}}_j \dfrac{\partial X^j}{\partial x^b}
\end{align*}which is better re-written as \begin{align*}
{(L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{T})^a}_b &= X^i \dfrac{\partial {T^a}_b}{\partial x^i} - {T^{i}}_b \dfrac{\partial X^a}{\partial x^i} + {T^{a}}_j \dfrac{\partial X^j}{\partial x^b} \\
\end{align*}The mnemonic is "minus the upper indices & plus the lower indices".

*the latter of these identities is deduced from the former. The former comes from the definition ##L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{S} |_p = \lim_{t \rightarrow 0} \frac{1}{t} \left( \mathbf{S} |_p - \phi_{t*} \mathbf{S} |_p \right)##.
 
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Thanks a lot. These were helpful
ergospherical said:
For sake of an example, consider a ##(1,1)## tensor ##\mathbf{T}##. The Lie derivative ##L_{\mathbf{X}}## satisfies Leibniz' rule, hence\begin{align*}
L_{\mathbf{X}} ( \mathbf{T} \otimes \mathbf{e}^a \otimes \mathbf{e}_b ) = L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{T} \otimes \mathbf{e}^a \otimes \mathbf{e}_b + \mathbf{T} \otimes L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{e}^a \otimes \mathbf{e}_b + \mathbf{T} \otimes \mathbf{e}^a \otimes L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{e}_b
\end{align*}for arbitrary basis vectors ##\mathbf{e}^a## and ##\mathbf{e}_b##. Now contract over all four positions; recall that ##L_{\mathbf{X}}## preserves contractions.\begin{align*}

(\dagger) \quad L_{\mathbf{X}} {T^a}_b &= {(L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{T})^a}_b + {T^{i}}_j \langle L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{e}^a, \mathbf{e}_i \rangle \langle \mathbf{e}^j, \mathbf{e}_b \rangle + {T^{i}}_j \langle \mathbf{e}^a, \mathbf{e}_i \rangle \langle \mathbf{e}^j, L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{e}_b \rangle \\

&= {(L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{T})^a}_b + {T^{i}}_b \langle L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{e}^a, \mathbf{e}_i \rangle + {T^{a}}_j \langle \mathbf{e}^j, L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{e}_b \rangle

\end{align*}By definition the Lie derivative acts on functions as ##L_{\mathbf{X}} f = \mathbf{X}f## hence in coordinate basis ##L_{\mathbf{X}} {T^a}_b = X^i \dfrac{\partial {T^a}_b}{\partial x^i}##. Furthermore, for vectors ##\mathbf{Y} \in T_p## and covectors ##\boldsymbol{\eta} \in T^*_p## we have*\begin{align*}
(L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{Y})^i &= \dfrac{\partial Y^i}{\partial x^j} X^j - \dfrac{\partial X^i}{\partial x^j} Y^j \\

(L_{\mathbf{X}} \boldsymbol{\eta})_i &= \dfrac{\partial \eta_i}{\partial x^j} X^j + \dfrac{\partial X^j}{\partial x^i} \eta_j
\end{align*}which imply that for a coordinate basis ##\left(L_{\mathbf{X}} \dfrac{\partial}{\partial x^i} \right)^j = -\dfrac{\partial X^j}{\partial x^i}## and ##(L_{\mathbf{X}} dx^i)_j = \dfrac{\partial X^i}{\partial x^j}##. Returning to equation ##(\dagger)##,\begin{align*}
X^i \dfrac{\partial {T^a}_b}{\partial x^i} &= {(L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{T})^a}_b + {T^{i}}_b \dfrac{\partial X^a}{\partial x^i} - {T^{a}}_j \dfrac{\partial X^j}{\partial x^b}
\end{align*}which is better re-written as \begin{align*}
{(L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{T})^a}_b &= X^i \dfrac{\partial {T^a}_b}{\partial x^i} - {T^{i}}_b \dfrac{\partial X^a}{\partial x^i} + {T^{a}}_j \dfrac{\partial X^j}{\partial x^b} \\
\end{align*}The mnemonic is "minus the upper indices & plus the lower indices".

*the latter of these identities is deduced from the former. The former comes from the definition ##L_{\mathbf{X}} \mathbf{S} |_p = \lim_{t \rightarrow 0} \frac{1}{t} \left( \mathbf{S} |_p - \phi_{t*} \mathbf{S} |_p \right)##.
 
In all of these calculations ##X## is just a vector right ?
 
A vector field, technically, since it needs values in a region for ##\partial_i X^j## to make sense, but yes.
 
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Yeah, as @Ibix said ##\mathbf{X}## is a vector field on the manifold ##M##, and for each ##p \in M## there is a curve ##\gamma## such that ##\gamma(0) = p## and ##\gamma'(t) = \mathbf{X} |_{\gamma(t)}##. ##\mathbf{X}## generates a flow ##\phi_t## which takes any point ##p## a parameter distance ##t## along the integral curve through ##p##. The difference between a tensor field ##\mathbf{T} |_p## evaluated at ##p## and its push-forward ##\phi_{t*} \mathbf{T}|_p## also evaluated at ##p## ##-## per unit parameter ##t## ##-## is essentially the Lie derivative.
 
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thanks
 
  • #10
As a side question, does the covariant derivative defined in 3D space ?
 
  • #11
It's defined in any dimension, although since 1d manifolds don't have curvature it's unexciting there.
 
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  • #12
Ibix said:
It's defined in any dimension, although since 1d manifolds don't have curvature it's unexciting there.
Okay thanks
 

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