Calculus of Variation: Extremum & Further Variances

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculus of variations, specifically focusing on the conditions for identifying extremum points of functionals. Participants explore the implications of variations being zero and the significance of higher-order variations in determining whether a functional represents a minimum, maximum, or saddle point.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant states that if the first variation ##δI=0## and the second variation ##δ^2I>0##, then the functional has a minimum, while ##δ^2I<0## indicates a maximum. However, they question the case when both ##δI=0## and ##δ^2I=0##, suggesting further variations may need to be considered.
  • Another participant argues that finding further variations may not be useful, emphasizing that the stationarity condition ##δI=0## can occur for maxima, minima, and saddle points.
  • A subsequent participant expresses confusion about how to determine whether the point is a minimum or maximum given the conditions discussed.
  • One participant provides a resource for better understanding the necessary and sufficient conditions for minima and acknowledges a previous misunderstanding regarding the second variation, suggesting that further variations should indeed be computed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the utility of further variations when both the first and second variations are zero. There are competing views on how to interpret these conditions and whether they lead to definitive conclusions about the nature of the extremum.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the lack of clarity on the implications of higher-order variations and the specific conditions under which they should be computed. The discussion also reflects varying interpretations of the stationarity condition and its consequences.

LagrangeEuler
Messages
711
Reaction score
22
If for some functional ##I##, ##δI=0## where ##δ## is symbol for variation functional has extremum. For ##δ^2I>0## it is minimum, and for ##\delta^2I>0## it is maximum. What if
##δI=δ^2I=0##. Then I must go with finding further variations. And if ##δ^3I>0## is then that minimum? Or what?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Finding further variations is useless from this point of view.
The stationarity of the functional, i.e. δI=0 , occurs for maxima, minima and saddles.
 
So then how I could know? Is it minimum or maximum?
 
Here you will find a better explanation than I could give on sufficient and necessary conditions for minima http://www.math.utah.edu/~cherk/teach/12calcvar/sec-var.pdf
If you have the book "introduction to Calculus of Variations" by Fox you will find there a thorough discussion of the second variation: yes further variations are to be computed.
I really do apologise for my previous reply which was wildly inaccurate due to a misunderstanding of mine.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K