Can a distant object behind a cosmic string appear as a double image?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of how a distant object behind a cosmic string may appear as a double image, exploring the implications of gravitational lensing in the context of a perturbed spacetime metric. Participants analyze the mathematical framework and coordinate transformations involved in this phenomenon.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that the double image effect is analogous to gravitational lensing, with light from the object bending around the cosmic string.
  • There is discussion about the nature of the spacetime metric, with some arguing that the metric appears Minkowski in cylindrical coordinates, while others question the validity of this assumption for all radial coordinates.
  • Participants explore the implications of the coordinate transformation on the angular coordinate, raising questions about the meaning of rescaling angles and its effects on the perception of images.
  • Some participants note that the condition ##\lambda \leq 1## imposes an upper limit on the radial coordinate, suggesting that the spacetime is not entirely Minkowski due to the presence of closed timelike curves at larger values of ##r##.
  • There is a proposal that the transformation leads to two equivalent angles in the new coordinates, which could explain the appearance of two images from a single object in the original coordinates.
  • Some participants emphasize the need for a heuristic argument rather than a strict mathematical demonstration to explain the intuitive understanding of the double image effect.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of agreement and disagreement regarding the interpretation of the spacetime metric and the implications of the coordinate transformations. While some aspects of the discussion show a convergence of ideas, significant uncertainty and differing interpretations remain regarding the nature of the double image phenomenon.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in understanding the metric's behavior, particularly at the origin and the implications of the coordinate transformations. The discussion reflects a complex interplay of mathematical reasoning and conceptual exploration without reaching a definitive conclusion.

etotheipi
Please see the end of question 2 of this document: https://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/examples/3R1d.pdf
What does Tong mean by "Show intuitively how a distant object behind a cosmic string may appear as a double image"?

[For reference, the cosmic string in question is described by ##(T_{\mu \nu}) = \mu \delta(x) \delta(y) \mathrm{diag}(1,0,0,-1)##]
 
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etotheipi said:
What does Tong mean by "Show intuitively how a distant object behind a cosmic string may appear as a double image"?
He means that, in this spacetime, you can see two images of the object, one coming from each side of the cosmic string--something like gravitational lensing.
 
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PeterDonis said:
He means that, in this spacetime, you can see two images of the object, one coming from each side of the cosmic string--something like gravitational lensing.
What's the argument he's looking for? That last equation ##ds^2 = -dt^2 + dz^2 + d\tilde{r}^2 + \tilde{r}^2 d\tilde{\phi}^2## is Minkowski spacetime in cylindrical coordinates but I can't at all see how to take that and then deduce anything about double images...
 
etotheipi said:
That last equation ##ds^2 = -dt^2 + dz^2 + d\tilde{r}^2 + \tilde{r}^2 d\tilde{\phi}^2## is Minkowski spacetime in cylindrical coordinates
It looks like it is, but the question at the end, "Is this Minkowski spacetime?", should lead you to stop and think. Look carefully at the original perturbed metric, in terms of ##\lambda##. Is it valid for all values of ##r##? (Look at the formula for ##\lambda##.) How about the coordinate transformations to get from that metric to the apparently Minkowski one? Are they valid for all radial coordinates?
 
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etotheipi said:
What's the argument he's looking for?
The last coordinate transformation changes the angular coordinate ##\phi##. What change is made? What does it mean?
 
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Right, I see ##\lambda## is undefined at the origin ##r=0##, so I guess the new spacetime is Minkowski \ ##\mathbf{0}##. As for the angular co-ordinate it transforms as ##(1-8\mu G)d\phi^2 = d\tilde{\phi}^2## but I can't see any motivation other than to make the metric into a nicer form...
 
etotheipi said:
I see ##\lambda## is undefined at the origin ##r=0##
That's true, but it's not the only interesting property it has. Look at the perturbed metric in terms of ##\lambda##, and consider intervals for which ##dt = dz = 0##.

etotheipi said:
As for the angular co-ordinate it transforms as ##(1-8\mu G)d\phi^2 = d\tilde{\phi}^2##
Yes, which means the angular coordinate is being rescaled. But what does it even mean to rescale an angular coordinate? What happens to ##\phi = 2 \pi## when ##\phi## gets rescaled?
 
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PeterDonis said:
That's true, but it's not the only interesting property it has. Look at the perturbed metric in terms of ##\lambda##, and consider intervals for which ##dt = dz = 0##.
Ah, okay! Since ##ds^2 \geq 0##, for these spacetime displacements we must have ##\lambda \leq 1## which is equivalent to ##r \leq r_0 \mathrm{exp}\left( \dfrac{1}{8\mu G} \right)##, i.e. an upper bound on ##r##.

PeterDonis said:
Yes, which means the angular coordinate is being rescaled. But what does it even mean to rescale an angular coordinate? What happens to ##\phi = 2 \pi## when ##\phi## gets rescaled?
I'd say a point at angle ##\phi## in the old spacetime is rotated around the ##z## axis to angle ##\tilde{\phi} = \phi\sqrt{1-8\mu G}## in the new spacetime.

It's still not jumping out at me how to tie all these things together. Maybe I need to stare at it for longer... :wink:
 
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etotheipi said:
Since ##ds^2 \geq 0##, for these spacetime displacements we must have ##\lambda \leq 1## which is equivalent to ##r \leq r_0 \mathrm{exp}\left( \dfrac{1}{8\mu G} \right)##, i.e. an upper bound on ##r##.
Not necessarily; ##\lambda = 1## is still a valid part of the spacetime. But at the value of ##r## where ##\lambda = 1##, one can have a closed null curve with constant ##t##, ##z##, ##r##. And at larger values of ##r##, one can have closed timelike curves with constant ##t##, ##z##, ##r##. So this is clearly not Minkowski spacetime.

etotheipi said:
I'd say a point at angle ##\phi## in the old spacetime is rotated around the ##z## axis to angle ##\tilde{\phi} = \phi\sqrt{1-8\mu G}## in the new spacetime.
Not just one point. Since ##\phi = 2 \pi## in the old coordinates (not "old spacetime", it's the same spacetime, just changing coordinates) goes to ##\phi < 2 \pi## in the new coordinates, the metric that "looks" Minkowski does not cover the full range of angular coordinate ##\phi## that actual Minkowski spacetime does. Instead it's like Minkowski spacetime with a pie-slice shaped portion cut out and the edges of the cut "sewn" back together (since there is no discontinuity in the spacetime there). So in the Minkowski-looking coordinates, we have that the locus ##\phi = 2 \pi - \Delta## (where ##\Delta## is the offset created by the rescaling of ##\phi##) is the same as the locus ##\phi = 2 \pi##.

Now consider what that means if we have a distant object at ##\phi = 2 \pi - \Delta##, which is the same as ##\phi = 2 \pi##, and we have an observer looking towards the cosmic string from direction ##\phi = \pi - \Delta / 2##. How many images will he see? What would your intuitive response be? (Remember that the metric looks Minkowski in these coordinates apart from the missing pie slice.)
 
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  • #10
PeterDonis said:
Since ##\phi = 2 \pi## in the old coordinates (not "old spacetime", it's the same spacetime, just changing coordinates)
Yes sorry, by new and old spacetime I meant to say in the new and old co-ordinate spaces, ##\tilde{x}^{\mu}(M)## and ##x^{\mu}(M)##.

PeterDonis said:
Now consider what that means if we have a distant object at ##\phi = 2 \pi - \Delta##, which is the same as ##\phi = 2 \pi##, and we have an observer looking towards the cosmic string from direction ##\phi = \pi - \Delta / 2##. How many images will he see? What would your intuitive response be? (Remember that the metric looks Minkowski in these coordinates apart from the missing pie slice.)
I think I see what you're getting at; in the new "Minkowski-ish" co-ordinates, the angles ##\tilde{\phi} = 0## and ##\tilde{\phi} = 2\pi - \Delta## corresponding to the two sides of the wedge are both equivalent to ##\phi = 0## in the original co-ordinates [since ##2\pi = 0 \, (\mathrm{mod} \, 2\pi)##].

Consequently a single image at ##\phi = 0## would become two images at ##\tilde{\phi} = 0## and ##\tilde{\phi} = 2\pi - \Delta##. [And a camera positioned at ##\pi - \Delta/2##, looking toward the origin, would see two images at ##\pm \Delta /2##]. Is that right? 😄
 
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  • #11
etotheipi said:
I think I see what you're getting at; in the new "Minkowski-ish" co-ordinates, the angles ##\tilde{\phi} = 0## and ##\tilde{\phi} = 2\pi - \Delta## corresponding to the two sides of the wedge are both equivalent to ##\phi = 0## in the original co-ordinates [since ##2\pi = 0 \, (\mathrm{mod} \, 2\pi)##].

Consequently a single image at ##\phi = 0## would become two images at ##\tilde{\phi} = 0## and ##\tilde{\phi} = 2\pi - \Delta##. [And a camera positioned at ##\pi - \Delta/2##, looking toward the origin, would see two images at ##\pm \Delta /2##]. Is that right? 😄
That's what I was thinking, yes.
 
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  • #12
PeterDonis said:
That's what I was thinking, yes.
Thanks for the help! This is quite an interesting and surprising effect.
 
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  • #13
To me, ”show intuitively” does not indicate a need to actually show it mathematically, but rather to provide a heuristic argument.
 
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Orodruin said:
To me, ”show intuitively” does not indicate a need to actually show it mathematically, but rather to provide a heuristic argument.
In this case I think it more or less amounts to the same thing; we could state the "Minkowski spacetime with a pie slice cut out" property, which is the key feature, in words, but it's just as easy to state it mathematically.
 
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