Can blind and deaf people see and hear in the astral plane?

[Burnsys]

It turns out that it isn't enough for a thing to simply have a physical presence in space for it to know that. A dedicated sense must also be in place to inform it of the confines of its physical body, and how its limbs are positioned relative to each other.

how is exactly that proprioception works?
i mean in which way does it collect the data it need to tell our brain where our body is, i can gues it receive input from the muscles which tell the brain how tense or relaxed they are, with that data it can calculate where each part is positioned relative to "another part of the body"?

Another thing, when i close my eyes and i start thinking, let's say a imagine an object in my brain, it's like if i feel the image i am thinking is spatialy located in my brain, the same way i feel pain the feeling is spatialy located in the part of the body that hurts, even when the signal of pain is procesed in my brain. is this also related to the proprioception system?

Anyway, just some random toughts..

 

[zoobyshoe]

how is exactly that proprioception works?
i mean in which way does it collect the data it need to tell our brain where our body is, i can gues it receive input from the muscles which tell the brain how tense or relaxed they are, with that data it can calculate where each part is positioned relative to "another part of the body"?

Here's a bit of an explanation: (scroll down a bit)


Chat11.com: Stretching FAQ 1.6.1 - Proprioceptors
Address:http://www.chat11.com/Stretching_FAQ_1.6.1_-_Proprioceptors

I haven't looked into the nerve part of it very deeply. I'm more interested in finding out where this processed in the brain, which has been hard to pin down, because it seems to be spread around, although there are important areas in the parietal lobes.

Another thing, when i close my eyes and i start thinking, let's say a imagine an object in my brain, it's like if i feel the image i am thinking is spatialy located in my brain, the same way i feel pain the feeling is spatialy located in the part of the body that hurts, even when the signal of pain is procesed in my brain. is this also related to the proprioception system?

I do the same thing; I envision images as being located spatially in my head. I have no idea if this is the result of the cultural notion that the brain is the organ of thinking, or if this is because I'm relating images to the location of my eyes, or what. I think that when they used to believe people thought with their hearts it could be they envisioned images as being located in the chest, but I don't know.

 

[Johann]

I went through the literature fairly extensively and found very little that could only be interpreted as a confirmation of an objective out-of-body state. Tart wrote up one case with a woman who managed to report something and it seemed the easiest explanation was true OBE state - but one strong (not iron clad) case in the whole of literature starts to sound like coincidence.

I think the really interesting cases are the ones associated with near-death experiences. I haven't brought those up because I think NDEs are a completely separate subject, although many people think the two phenomena are related.

While these descriptions are essentially worthless as they leave very little predictive value, they do match up with my personal experience.

There is certainly more to OBEs than mere hallucinations, since hallucinations never have common themes and common features. For instance, the so-called "silver cord" is a very common feature of OBEs which is impossible to explain away as coincidence.

I wanted an irrefutable "jackpot" veridical OBE (and still do) and in the beginning I had my husband hide something for me to identify while out of body. I found that although I could attain a subjective "out of body" state, that when I tried to direct my focus to identifying the object, things became very confused.

I think the major difference between the OBE and the NDE is that in OBEs the brain is almost as active as in the waking state, while in NDEs it often stops completely. If we really have an essence that is capable of leaving the body, then certainly it is strongly connected with the brain and heavily influenced by it. That could explain why objective reports are almost non-existent in the case of OBEs, but very common in the case of NDEs.

I don't believe I'm psychotic, on the other hand how would I know?

I heard that the basic difference between madness and sanity is that sane people believe they won't know if they go mad, while mad people are fully convinced they are perfectly sane.

I would have to say that if OBE's reflect the afterlife, that it is a very fluid and confusing place indeed. This is not necessarily a good thing, it's damn frustrating.

This world looks pretty fluid and confusing to a newborn baby as well. You can't make sense of your experiences if they are too short and too far apart, but given enough time everything can make perfect sense.

 

[Badass]

Zoobyshoe, here is your link, www.near-death-experiences.info-near-death.html[/URL]. I hope it works. I am the same about a subject which I don't understand, I redicual it. I am so sure that consciousness is totally separate from the physical body. It goes far beyond just feelings and what have you. In the link I've given you people have also experinced heightend senses such as improved hearing and sight, this also comes back to part where people who are blind can see. I'm sure that one day we will find out for ourselves and I think you could find that we were right. How do you argue with people who've seen their own operations performed on them when the doctor or surgen prenounced them brain dead? I hardly think hallucinations come into it as you are seeing and hearing outside the physical body. Even scientists have admitted that part of us survives beyond death. :wink:

 

[pattylou]

That could explain why objective reports are almost non-existent in the case of OBEs, but very common in the case of NDEs.

I included NDE reports in my search, and didn't find any compelling reports. Ex: the famous "shoe" NDE was touted as something the patient couldn't have seen beforehand. Later we learned that the shoe was easily visible from many vantage points outside the hospital.

If you have any references you feel are good, please pass them on. Usually people are relying on stories like someone saying "I overheard the doctors saying xyz, and I couldn't have heard that if I was truly dead and gone" ... And there are too many problems, of different sorts, with this kind of anecdotal analysis to conclude that we have some sort of "essence."

 

[deckart]

Zoobyshoe, here is your link, www.near-death-experiences.info-near-death.html[/URL]. I hope it works. I am the same about a subject which I don't understand, I redicual it. I am so sure that consciousness is totally separate from the physical body. It goes far beyond just feelings and what have you. In the link I've given you people have also experinced heightend senses such as improved hearing and sight, this also comes back to part where people who are blind can see. I'm sure that one day we will find out for ourselves and I think you could find that we were right. How do you argue with people who've seen their own operations performed on them when the doctor or surgen prenounced them brain dead? I hardly think hallucinations come into it as you are seeing and hearing outside the physical body. Even scientists have admitted that part of us survives beyond death. :wink:[/QUOTE]

Your link doesn't seem to work. You say that scientists have admitted that part of us survives beyond death. That's kind of a loose statement. I don't believe there is any scientific evidence of this.

 

[Johann]

I included NDE reports in my search, and didn't find any compelling reports.

When people say that, I really don't understand. I'm sure you have read reports of people describing details of procedures being done to them, or events happening in different rooms at the hospital, or objects that were only around when they were unconscious. You may doubt some stories, even most stories, but to remain indifferent is something I can't quite understand.

Ex: the famous "shoe" NDE was touted as something the patient couldn't have seen beforehand. Later we learned that the shoe was easily visible from many vantage points outside the hospital.

But the point is not whether the shoe was easily visible or not. The interesting thing is nobody ever noticed the shoe before, until someone who almost died reported seeing it. Why would someone who is almost dying pay attention to an abandoned shoe high up a hospital building? Of course you can argue that she saw it while she was being carried from the ambulance to the emergency room, and this kind of forced explanation may well explain away many of the reports, but... all of them?

Usually people are relying on stories like someone saying "I overheard the doctors saying xyz, and I couldn't have heard that if I was truly dead and gone" ... And there are too many problems, of different sorts, with this kind of anecdotal analysis to conclude that we have some sort of "essence."

"Some sort of essence" is, in my opinion, a completely independent issue. Maybe we last for 32 minutes on average after we die, and then expire forever; who knows? Seeking for this kind of knowledge is pointless and never got anyone anywhere. Ultimately we are at the mercy of a power way beyond our ability to control or even understand. I live my life in the moment and worry not about the future, but maybe that is because I have an absolute faith in that power. I see no other way of dealing with this issue.

OBEs and NDEs are fun and interesting, but they have nothing to teach us regarding the mystery of our existence or the fate that awaits us. Absolutely nothing.

 

[Burnsys]

i saw a documental in discovey channel a time ago about NDE, they did a test. they placed a LED Banner which showed some messages in the top of a shelve in the operations room not visible from the operation bed neither from the floor, after a lot of operations i don't remember the exact number, but was somnthing like this:
250 patients operated, 30 Where brain dead for a momenth and came back later. 10 reported NDE, and 4 have saw themselfs in the bed as flying in the top of the operations room, no one of those 4 saw the led banner..

 

[Burnsys]

There is a drug which users says they feel like NDE while their use it, it's KETAMINE, some kind of anesthesic...

 

[pattylou]

When people say that, I really don't understand. I'm sure you have read reports of people describing details of procedures being done to them, or events happening in different rooms at the hospital, or objects that were only around when they were unconscious. You may doubt some stories, even most stories, but to remain indifferent is something I can't quite understand.

It boils down to what sort of process you use to decide something is "real." The NDE anecdotes don't hold up to the scientific method, and aren't therefore worth much time if you are discussing some topic like "the physical constitution of self." (For example.)

If your question is: "Do we survive physical death?" then you may find these anecdotes useful, but as a scientist I see them as lacking in several areas.

On the other hand, if your question is: "What can subjective experience add to quality of life?" (or something) then these anecdotes may be useful for entirely different reasons. they still wouldn't be scientific, but the nature of your question has changed to be a subjective sort of question rather than a question regarding measuring some aspect of existence in exact terms.

(Incidentally, you used the term "essence" first, I merely used it because it seemed to be your preferred term. I have no particular interest in discussing what may happen after we die.)

 

[SGT]

I didn't say "thoughts" in the ordinary sense of the word. There are no words to explain ideas around OBEs because most people never experience one. It would be like trying to talk about sound in a world where 90% are deaf and most of the remaining 10% only had a hearing experience once in their lives.

The same is true for hallucinations. Most people never experience one.

Whatever. The point is that our experience of the world is not forced on us by our senses, but the result of intense mental effort.

Is this true for animals too?

Funny how you say "sound" could be felt as touch or smell, and then forget about it in the next sentence to proclaim that sound "really is" compression waves - a completely visual concept!

Seeing compression waves is equivalent to tasting or smelling them. Can yo do it?

"Temporary shut down of the sense of proprioception" is what causes the experience, not the experience itself. No one knows what the experience is; neurologists know as much about it as those "astral" folks.

Neurologists may not know the precise nature of the phenomenon, but "astral" folks only make up explanations, without any evidence.

 

[deckart]

I did some reading on an astral forum: http://www.astralweb.org

Some say they have evidence. Their spirit guides told them this stuff, that's why they know it's true!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

From the Credible Anomalies Napster

Near Death Experiences in Cardiac Arrest and the Mystery of Consciousness
...Cardiac arrest patients are a subgroup of people who come closest to death. In such a situation an individual initially develops two out of three criteria (the absence of spontaneous breathing and heartbeat) of clinical death. Shortly afterwards (within seconds) these are followed by the third, which occurs due to the loss of activity of the areas of the brain responsible for sustaining life (brainstem) and thought processes (cerebral cortex). Brain monitoring using EEG in animals and humans has also demonstrated that the brain ceases to function at that time. During a cardiac arrest, the blood pressure drops almost immediately to unrecordable levels and at the same time, due to a lack of blood flow, the brain stops functioning as seen by flat brain waves (isoelectric line) on the monitor within around 10 seconds. This then remains the case throughout the time when the heart is given 'electric shock' therapy or when drugs such as adrenaline are given until the heartbeat is finally restored and the patient is resuscitated. Due to the lack of brain function in these circumstances, therefore, one would not expect there to be any lucid, well-structured thought processes, with reasoning and memory formation, which are characteristic of NDEs.

Nevertheless, and contrary to what we would expect scientifically, studies have shown that 'near death experiences' do occur in such situations. This therefore raises a question of how such lucid and well-structured thought processes, together with such clear and vivid memories, occur in individuals who have little or no brain function. In other words, it would appear that the mind is seen to continue in a clinical setting in which there is little or no brain function. In particular, there have been reports of people being able to 'see' details from the events that occurred during their cardiac arrest, such as their dentures being removed. [continued]

http://www.datadiwan.de/SciMedNet/library/articlesN75+/N76Parnia_nde.htm

The explanation offered for this is that activity exists deeper in the brain than can be meaured with a typical EEG machine. I don't know if or to what extent this issue is resolved.

 

[pattylou]

I recall that protein synthesis (an event that can occur within a single cell, autonomously) has been shown to be an important part of the development of memory. EEG's measure electrical movement from one cell to another. In other words, at least one step in the formation of memory occurs within individual cells, and EEG's are certainly *not* measuring that event, as they measure cell-cell communication (electrical impulse.)

It seems (at least formally) possible that for people who have become EEG-flat, events like protein synthesis could still occur within cells, in the absence of cell - to - cell (electrical impulse) communication.

Perhaps the (protein - synthesis portion of) memories are being formed in cells, while the brain is flat - line, and when the pateint is resuscitated, those "memories" can finish their normal progression including cell-cell communications via neuron function.

It would be odd if all cellular processes stopped just because neurons stopped firing, after all.

-patty

p.s. I'm really sorry for garbling so much of that. I think it's a good idea, I am just not fluent in neurological jargon.

 

[loseyourname]

Here, in a similar vein, a person seeing someone else having an OBE would be producing a visual manifestation of what the other person thought they were experiencing. They pick up the info from the other person telepathically, then form it into a "vision" of them floating around, in the way synesthetes hear music, then form colored shapes in their visual field that conform to the music.

That's actually pretty close to what I meant, although my wording was more ambiguous.

 

[loseyourname]

I have no idea what this means.

It's a rephrasing of Kantian metaphysics, best I can tell.

 

[loseyourname]

I recall that protein synthesis (an event that can occur within a single cell, autonomously) has been shown to be an important part of the development of memory. EEG's measure electrical movement from one cell to another. In other words, at least one step in the formation of memory occurs within individual cells, and EEG's are certainly *not* measuring that event, as they measure cell-cell communication (electrical impulse.)

It seems (at least formally) possible that for people who have become EEG-flat, events like protein synthesis could still occur within cells, in the absence of cell - to - cell (electrical impulse) communication.

Perhaps the (protein - synthesis portion of) memories are being formed in cells, while the brain is flat - line, and when the pateint is resuscitated, those "memories" can finish their normal progression including cell-cell communications via neuron function.

It would be odd if all cellular processes stopped just because neurons stopped firing, after all.

-patty

p.s. I'm really sorry for garbling so much of that. I think it's a good idea, I am just not fluent in neurological jargon.

One problem with that is that for a memory to form, it needs to be a memory of something, so there will still need to be communication across a neural net of some sort. Unless the cell is remembering its own subcellular processes.

 

[Burnsys]

Personaly i think that it's an issue with the brain experiencing time...
I gues in the pior moments of the brain death experience of time is heavly distorted, all the experiences the patient describes as NDE are really activity during the prior moments of the No brain activity with an anormal experience of time..

Don't you ever had a very long dream and when you wake up you realize you where asleep olny for a couple of minutes? Like if all the dreaming didn't fit in the time you where asleep

Just what i think...

 

[Ivan Seeking]

One problem with that is that for a memory to form, it needs to be a memory of something, so there will still need to be communication across a neural net of some sort. Unless the cell is remembering its own subcellular processes.

Ultimately the argument hinges on what seem to be detailed memories of real events.

 

[Spin_Network]

This is one topic I'm really into at the moment and possibly the one which will one day really bring the truth to us when we die. I'm currently on an astral website, and you know what, the people on there gave the best answer ever to astral projection." Try it"! they give courses on there as how to leave your physical body. I've heard alarming accounts from people I know who've had OBE's and it's amazing. Even blind and deaf people on how they can hear and see in the astral plane. It goes to prove that consciousness really IS a great mystery. I think of us as the "ghost" as such in a physical body.

Out Of Body Experience and Near Death Experience's share a common factor, in that when Humans are within the Womb, the brain is functioning by gathering information, prior to birth. The transitional journey from a contained Liquid Environment, to an uncontained environment of Gas/Air is a pretty automated action. The infant Brain has to prepare for the burst of Photons that will infuse the brain at birth. The mind having no prior knowledge of the outside 'gas', world produces a virtual 'image' in order to calibrate the transition of liquid to air.

The "Bright-light-at-the-end-of-a-Dark-Tunnel" is nothing more than the event of Birth, the transition from Liquid to Gas and Unconscious to a Conscious environment. Its a Phase transition that could be thought of as a "Near Birth Experience", which happens to be the same event played at certain dangerous time's in Human Experience, say life threatening events, traumatic episode's, or situations where the mind is put out of conscious 'action' during a medical operation for instance.

Memory impregnation (the events made in the mind of information processed), can be played back at anytime in one's life. The OBE is nothing more than the Primordial foundational event captured and processed by the Brain, its the same event as NDE, the common factor is the "Bright light at the end of a dark tunnel", is the FIRST, and sometime's LAST event recalled by Human beings, for the Conscious Human it may cause Hallucinory products, for the semi-conscious, it may invoke one to treat the event as religeous spiritual "Awakening"?

Now the really interssting thing is that you do not have to be in any of the situations stated above, to experience OBE or NDE, you can play with your mind to such an extent that you 'recall' the experience, and intepret this as Astro-Projection?..some religions have people who withdraw from the conscious world, and come out of their experience detailing all manner of mis-intepretations, but all they are really doing is imposing an deprevivation of external information, they stop the "real-world" information reaching the brain/mind, and therefore the mind pulls information from memory, this will no doubt include the "Near Life Experience" I have stated.

There are other events that can play an important part in forming logical deductions from your surrounding environments, these are the Basis of General Relativity which Einstein so eloquently provided.

Its a Fail-Safe premordial action that is often misunderstood, is actually a Near Life Experience Memory (transition from unborn to born) rather than a Near-Death-Experience.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The explanation offered for this is that activity exists deeper in the brain than can be meaured with a typical EEG machine. I don't know if or to what extent this issue is resolved.

Whooooooah, that should read "can't", not "can".

The explanation offered for this is that activity exists deeper in the brain that can't be meaured with a typical EEG machine. I don't know if or to what extent this issue is resolved

 

[SGT]

Dr. Karl Jansen has reproduced NDEs with ketamine, a short-acting, hallucinogenic, dissociative anaesthetic.

The anaesthesia is the result of the patient being so 'dissociated' and 'removed from their body' that it is possible to carry out surgical procedures. This is wholly different from the 'unconsciousness' produced by conventional anesthetics, although ketamine is also an excellent analgesic (pain killer) by a different route (i.e. not due to dissociation). Ketamine is related to phencyclidine (PCP). Both drugs are arylcyclohexylamines - they are not opioids and are not related to LSD. In contrast to PCP, ketamine is relatively safe, is much shorter acting, is an uncontrolled drug in most countries, and remains in use as an anaesthetic for children in industrialised countries and all ages in the third world as it is cheap and easy to use. Anaesthetists prevent patients from having NDE's ('emergence phenomena') by the co-administration of sedatives which produce 'true' unconsciousness rather than dissociation.*

According to Dr. Jansen, ketamine can reproduce all the main features of the NDE, including travel through a dark tunnel into the light, the feeling that one is dead, communing with God, hallucinations, out-of-body experiences, strange noises, etc.

This, of course, does not prove that NDE's don't exist, but the fact that they can be artificially produced is some indication that those experiences may have a physiological explanation.

 

[Badass]

Within respect, what many of you open minded skeptics forget is the so real accounts of what people see of themselves out side the human at the time of brain death and watching themselves being resuscitated. The descriptions they give the surgeon who proves them correct. Looking at the consciousness out side the body is a bit like a TV transmition. If you turn the TV off there is no picture but the signal is still coming through. What's really always fascinated me is the fact that our vision is better than the best DVD recorder and doesn't require many volts to keep it going. Look at the smallest creatures that move, they have no huge power supply but the energy in them makes them move. FASCINATING!

 

[Johann]

The NDE anecdotes don't hold up to the scientific method, and aren't therefore worth much time if you are discussing some topic like "the physical constitution of self."

I didn't think we were discussing science. You are the one claiming to be able to enter altered states of consciousness and have weird experiences. I didn't see you offer a scientific explanation for your experiences.

If your question is: "Do we survive physical death?" then you may find these anecdotes useful, but as a scientist I see them as lacking in several areas.

As I said, I don't find those anecdotes useful at all when it comes to what happens after we die. For one thing, people who have NDEs have not really died, so they really don't experience what it feels to be dead.

(Incidentally, you used the term "essence" first, I merely used it because it seemed to be your preferred term. I have no particular interest in discussing what may happen after we die.)

Incidentally, you mentioned "death" first

 

[Johann]

The same is true for hallucinations. Most people never experience one.

That is not true. We experience hallucinations every night. If we didn't dream, we would have a hard time understanding what a hallucination is.

Is this true for animals too?

Last time I checked you and I were animals.

Seeing compression waves is equivalent to tasting or smelling them. Can yo do it?

Some people actually can. It's called synesthesia.

Neurologists may not know the precise nature of the phenomenon, but "astral" folks only make up explanations, without any evidence.

I really don't understand what science has to do with any of this. All those science folks sound like some skeptics in Christopher Columbus' time complaining his claims of having discovered a new continent lacked "scientific rigour" and were based on "anecdotal evidence". It's just nonsense.

 

[SGT]

That is not true. We experience hallucinations every night. If we didn't dream, we would have a hard time understanding what a hallucination is.

Are you saying that dreams are hallucinations? Have you any cite for this?

Last time I checked you and I were animals.

Since you are nitpicking, is it true for other animals?

Some people actually can. It's called synesthesia.

Yes, about 1 in 2000 people can present this phenomenon, but this does not make sound a visual phenomenon.

I really don't understand what science has to do with any of this. All those science folks sound like some skeptics in Christopher Columbus' time complaining his claims of having discovered a new continent lacked "scientific rigour" and were based on "anecdotal evidence". It's just nonsense.

Last time I checked, Columbus died thinking he had arrived to India. Americo Vespucci is who said the land discovered by Columbus was a new continent. And I never heard that there were sceptics about this. Can you provide some cite?

 

[pattylou]

I didn't see you offer a scientific explanation for your experiences.

That's because I haven't.

 

[Johann]

That's because I haven't.

I'm not getting your point. I realize you're not making any claims, but you did offer your personal testimony, and then said something I interpreted as a statement that personal testimonies are worthless.

You must have learned something from your experiences, and I see no reason why you seem to think you see no value in sharing it with other people. Who cares if it's not "scientific"? Are we supposed to only learn things from "scientists"? That would make us rather ignorant.

 

[pattylou]

I didn't think we were discussing science. You are the one claiming to be able to enter altered states of consciousness and have weird experiences. I didn't see you offer a scientific explanation for your experiences.

As I said, I don't find those anecdotes useful at all when it comes to what happens after we die. For one thing, people who have NDEs have not really died, so they really don't experience what it feels to be dead.

Incidentally, you mentioned "death" first

Actually: For having quoted so much of my post, you left out the most important sentence. Here was the discussion:

Originally Posted by Johann
That could explain why objective reports are almost non-existent in the case of OBEs, but very common in the case of NDEs.

(Response from me:) I included NDE reports in my search, and didn't find any compelling reports. Ex: the famous "shoe" NDE was touted as something the patient couldn't have seen beforehand. Later we learned that the shoe was easily visible from many vantage points outside the hospital.

Our next exchange:

Originally Posted by pattylou
I included NDE reports in my search, and didn't find any compelling reports.

{response by you:) When people say that, I really don't understand. I'm sure you have read reports of people describing details of procedures being done to them, or events happening in different rooms at the hospital, or objects that were only around when they were unconscious. You may doubt some stories, even most stories, but to remain indifferent is something I can't quite understand.

And I responded directly to that, by saying:

It boils down to what sort of process you use to decide something is "real."

In other words, you said you don't know why people remain indifferent to reports from NDE'ers, and I responded that if you rely heavily on the scientific method to decide if something is real, then reports by NDE'ers, by virtue of being anecdotal (as well as other problems), are not something that will have much "wow" value. You will remain indifferent to them.

 

[pattylou]

I'm not getting your point. I realize you're not making any claims, but you did offer your personal testimony, and then said something I interpreted as a statement that personal testimonies are worthless.

You must have learned something from your experiences, and I see no reason why you seem to think you see no value in sharing it with other people. Who cares if it's not "scientific"? Are we supposed to only learn things from "scientists"? That would make us rather ignorant.

Indeed, there is a lot to be learned from such experiences, and I highly recommend that people try to achieve these states. Here are some of the value I see from such experiences:

1. It certainly expands one's understanding of the breadth of the human condition
2. It allows an experiential framework within which one can understand the "jargon" used by people such as Robert Bruce
3. It is certainly a type of "escape" and that can be a coping mechanism in times of stress.
4. Many people claim these experiences are transformative.
5. It gives one a greater appreciation for the philosophical question "What is real?"

But the main claim (claim made most often and many times the only claim made) on any OBE/NDE website is that these experiences point to a spirit-world. Scientifically, that conclusion is not justified. Some people reach this conclusion, and shouldn't, in my opinion. If you are not one of these people, I apologise for assuming that you are.

 

[Johann]

Actually: For having quoted so much of my post, you left out the most important sentence.

OK. It's hard to tell which sentence is more important, they all look the same

In other words, you said you don't know why people remain indifferent to reports from NDE'ers, and I responded that if you rely heavily on the scientific method to decide if something is real, then reports by NDE'ers, by virtue of being anecdotal (as well as other problems), are not something that will have much "wow" value. You will remain indifferent to them.

I still don't understand why people behave that way. It doesn't seem natural to me, and it's not the way most people behave. It sounds rather nerdish, if that's a word.

 

[pattylou]

Well, I admit I'm a nerd. :nerd smiley:

(Why don't we have a nerd smiley?)

http://www.it-mate.co.uk/new/icons/smiles_lrg/nerd.gif

 

[pattylou]

I still don't understand why people behave that way. It doesn't seem natural to me, and it's not the way most people behave. It sounds rather nerdish, if that's a word.

Many people make the argument that if you start living without application of critical thinking, all sorts of problems crop up. Beliefe in every strange idea takes hold and before you know it you have a president suggesting that creationism should be taught alongside evolution at the taxpayer's expense.

 

[Johann]

Indeed, there is a lot to be learned from such experiences, and I highly recommend that people try to achieve these states.

Actually, in that I disagree. I think people shouldn't play with things they can't understand or control. But that's just me.

Here are some of the value I see from such experiences:

As a matter of personal opinion, all those values can be had from things like art, music, meditation, religion.

But the main claim (claim made most often and many times the only claim made) on any OBE/NDE website is that these experiences point to a spirit-world. Scientifically, that conclusion is not justified.

Could the conclusion be justified in ways other than "scientifically"? Or are all truths of the universe available to science?

Some people reach this conclusion, and shouldn't, in my opinion.

Other than "because it's not scientific", why?

If you are not one of these people, I apologise for assuming that you are.

I do believe in a spirit-world, but simply as a matter of religious faith; it has nothing to do with paranormal phenomena. Do you think you still need to apologize?

 

[Johann]

Many people make the argument that if you start living without application of critical thinking, all sorts of problems crop up.

Many people make the argument that if you don't accept Jesus as your personal saviour, you will burn up in hell. If I were to bother with people making arguments, I'd go insane. Life is complicated but not that complicated; most of the time commonsense is enough, and when it isn't, all you have to do is wait and things will make sense by themselves.

Beliefe in every strange idea takes hold and before you know it you have a president suggesting that creationism should be taught alongside evolution at the taxpayer's expense.

But you don't need science to refute creationism, commonsense is enough.

If people said "you can't travel outside your body because the notion doesn't make sense", I'd have no problem with it, but to claim "it's not scientific" conveys a sense of authority that is not just there.