Can Einstein Tensor be the Product of Two 4-Vectors?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the possibility of expressing the Einstein tensor as a product of two 4-vectors, similar to the stress-energy tensor for a perfect fluid or "dust." Participants explore the conditions under which this might be valid, particularly in the context of the Einstein equation.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the stress-energy tensor (SET) for a perfect fluid with zero pressure can be expressed as a product of two 4-vectors, but this is considered a highly idealized situation.
  • Others argue that once nonzero pressure is introduced, the SET cannot be expressed purely as a product of 4-vectors, referencing specific equations from the literature.
  • A participant suggests that the Einstein tensor could be expressed similarly, questioning under what special cases or approximations this might hold true.
  • Clarifications are made regarding the relationship between the Einstein tensor and the stress-energy tensor, specifically that each element of the Einstein tensor is equal to the corresponding element of the stress-energy tensor multiplied by a constant factor.
  • There is a proposal that in a special case, the Einstein equation could be reduced to a vector equation, leading to further exploration of the implications of this reduction.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the expression of the SET as a product of 4-vectors is limited to idealized conditions. However, there is no consensus on whether the Einstein tensor can be expressed in a similar manner, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the conditions under which this might be valid.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations related to the idealization of the perfect fluid model and the complexities introduced by nonzero pressure. There are also unresolved mathematical steps in the proposed reductions to vector equations.

empdee4
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TL;DR
For particles of uniform mass and uniform momentum, stress-energy tensor can be written as product of two 4-vectors, can Einstein tensor be written in the same way?
In Gravitation by Misner, Thorne and Wheeler (p.139), stress-energy tensor for a single type of particles with uniform mass m and uniform momentum p (and E = p2 +m2) ½ ) can be written as a product of two 4-vectors,T(E,p) = (E,p)×(E,p)/[V(E2 – p2 )½ ]
Since Einstein equation is G = 8πGT, I am wondering if the left hand side, Einstein tensor, can also be written in the same way,
G(T,X) = (T,X)×(T,X)/[V (T2 – X2 )½ ]
If not, in what special case, or in what approximation, it can be expressed this way.
Thanks very much,
 
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empdee4 said:
In Gravitation by Misner, Thorne and Wheeler (p.139), stress-energy tensor for a single type of particles with uniform mass m and uniform momentum p (and E = p2 +m2) ½ ) can be written as a product of two 4-vectors
Basically this is the SET of a perfect fluid with zero pressure, usually called "dust" in the literature. But this is a highly idealized situation. As soon as you add nonzero pressure, the SET can no longer be expressed purely as a product of 4-vectors; see the very next page of MTW (equation 5.21).

empdee4 said:
Since Einstein equation is G = 8πGT, I am wondering if the left hand side, Einstein tensor, can also be written in the same way
Of course, just divide multiply ##T## by ##8 \pi##. That's what the equation says. But, as noted above, this is a highly idealized situation.
 
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PeterDonis said:
Basically this is the SET of a perfect fluid with zero pressure, usually called "dust" in the literature. But this is a highly idealized situation. As soon as you add nonzero pressure, the SET can no longer be expressed purely as a product of 4-vectors; see the very next page of MTW (equation 5.21).Of course, just divide ##T## by ##8 \pi##. That's what the equation says. But, as noted above, this is a highly idealized situation.
Thanks very much for explanation.

Just not clear what T / 8π means.
 
empdee4 said:
Thanks very much for explanation.

Just not clear what T / 8π means.
It just means that each element of the Einstein tensor is equal to the equivalent element of the stress-energy tensor multiplied by ##8\pi G/c^4## (not divided - @PeterDonis made a typo). You still have a bunch of nasty simultaneous differential equations to solve to extract the metric tensor.
 
Ibix said:
It just means that each element of the Einstein tensor is equal to the equivalent element of the stress-energy tensor multiplied by ##8\pi G/c^4## (not divided - @PeterDonis made a typo).
Oops, yes. I've fixed the post now.
 
Thanks for clarification. Does it mean Einstein equation in this very special case can be reduced to a vector equation, as follows:

G = 8πGT
T
(E,p) = (E,p)×(E,p)/[V (E2 – p2 )½ ]
G(T,X) = (T,X)×(T,X)/[V (T2 – X2 )½ ]

Thus, Einstein equation becomes

(T,X)x(T,X)/[V(T–X2)1/2]
=8πG(E,p)×8πG(E,p)/[V8πG(E2–p2)½]

which can be reduced to a 4-vector equation,

(T,X) =8πG(E,p)

thanks very much
 

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