Can Everything be Reduced to Pure Physics?

[Nereid]

As far as I can tell, what Sleeth means by "progressive organization" is the ability of non-living matter to organize into a living system through progressive steps. It is nothing more than abiogenesis.

My question is simple: If there is indeed a special quality that the first living matter possessed, why did only that batch of matter possesses this quality? As far as we can tell, life only arose once (at least on this planet), and it took close to a billion years for it to do so.

Hmm, do you have a reference for that? IIRC, there is evidence that life was already established on Earth in the very oldest of terrestrial rocks. Certainly that's several hundred million years after the Earth was formed, but as there are no older rocks, when it originated will have to wait until we find Earth meteorites on Mars, the Moon etc to check (or some other, indirect method).

If there is indeed "something more" that is responsible for this happening, what took it so long? Why has it only manifested its presence once and in such a limited capacity?

But we have, as yet, no way to test either statement. In the next five decades Mars and Io probes should either find life (or fossils) there, or at least provide much stronger limits on what sort of life isn't (and wasn't) on either.

There seems to be the concession that organic evolution can be accounted for through purely physical processes. If so, then "something more" only had to present in a very limited amount of matter billions of years ago and never again (also never before). If this were not the case, and "something more" was present in all matter, then we would see living systems develop in Urey-Miller type experiments!

But only if they got it 'right', reproducing the ancient environment correctly for example (IIRC, it's now thought their experiment modeled an environment that didn't actually exist on the early Earth).

 

[Nereid]

Okay, one more post then!

Thanks Les.

Now, I will concede your point by saying that it is possible matter may have realized a new potential here. There are those who say consciousness, for instance, is a new property of matter (as in "emergent" theory).

But if so, then I still want to see it reproduced. All the arguments about life having millions of years to evolve don't impress me much as an excuse for not demonstrating it (i.e., before proclaiming confidence in abiogenesis). I say that because look at the resiliancy of life. Whatever established it couldn't have been a flimsy or delicate principle for pre-life organization to have endured the hostilities of early Earth, made it to become a "living" system, and then to have survived (in one form or another) billions of years of untold hardships and natural catastrophies. It transformed our atmosphere, the oceans, the entire planet! As a system, life "works." It kicks butt, it gets it on . . . Besides, we know most of the conditions and chemicals that were present in prebiotic Earth. How many ways can those factors be arranged in a search for progressive organization anyway?

So I say, get some molecules going, force them to start self-organizing, pull out the old bag of chemical tricks that a science-educated consciousness should be able to develop far better than chance conditions could have back in primitive times. Prove once and for all chemistry can, in conditions that might be found on Earth, spontaneously kick into progressively organizing gear.

You know, you might be right that as we learn more about matter and self-organization, secrets will be found confirming physicalist theory. But it might also turn out that one day we will hear scientists say, "we can't do it." It's like those scientists today who are starting to waver about finding life on other planets, or even another planet anything like our seemingly rare Earth!

Whew, quite a lot there, probably more than I can handle in just one post, but let's try ...

Per my reply to loseyourname, the best we can say today is that life seems to have been well established in the earliest terrestrial rocks that are capable of providing such evidence (i.e. there's no trace of life in early igneous rocks, but then we wouldn't expect there to be anyway!). Another thing that's become increasingly clear is that we live the Age of Bacteria; indeed, it has always been the Age of Bacteria, and will likely be so until the Earth is fried by the Sun going red giant. Further, there's no evidence of anything but random walks from bacteria, life hasn't 'progressed' at all since it began! AFAIK, Gould first drew attention to this, and there's a marvellous chapter or two in one of his popular books explaining it (and, no doubt, a paper or six in the peer-reviewed literature).

So, there doesn't seem to be much chance of making progress on discovering how life began, from local rocks. A more productive approach may be molecular reconstruction ... learn in great detail how the most primitive bacteria work, and how less primitive ones work, and maybe just maybe some reconstruction can be done ... a bit like constructing the vocabulary and grammar of proto-IndoEuropean.

Then there's Miller-Urey XXXIV, etc. Maybe that will work, maybe not; even if it does, the sheer complexity - as we now know - of the enterprise will mean it will likely take at least 50 years just to nail down the main stages with any degree of confidence.

Then there's panspermia. Perhaps before 2100, samples returned from Mars will show clearly that life began there before 3.9 bya, and seeded the Earth. Perhaps sample returns from comets will show a far richer brew of organics - that could be used as starter chemicals - than anyone has so far dreamed of.

But that's all perhaps and maybes, and I don't have a spare $trillion or three to fund an accelerated research program.

Next post, something about the time dimension, and how its passage may change the nature of our discussion.

 

[Fliption]

Of course that is all it amounts to. If conscious designers exist at all as a special case, materialism, physicalism cannot be true.

My only point to Les has been made into a mountain. If I change the words to say "human" designer versus random chance, then I say you would choose random chance for the car on Mars for all the reasons I stated. Is that better?

(a) Design is only meaningful relative to a consumer, which provides purpose.

Huh? We can agree as beings that can communicate using language that the word "design" means something willfully created by a conscious being. It doesn't have to mean something useless. I'm not sure if you're going to go down the infinite path of asking for definitions like "what is willful?" but if you do, I will remember it and show you in a future thread that you're participating in that you cannot escape what you're trying to dish out. Or maybe you won't go there. I hope not.

(b) Rarity, or abundance is itself no indicator of design.

Surely you aren't denying a correlation? One does not lead to the other I agree but one only has to look at the fact that things designed by conscious beings have a tendency to be very rare where there are no conscious beings.

(c) Improbability is no evidence of design, if we concede a lack of total knowledge.

Same as above. Let's not pretend there is no correlation.

But we cannot declare absolutely that the car is designed, especially if we don't know a lot of context, and because design isn't absolutely defined, and because same product does not entail same process.

You will never hear me declaring anything absolutely. So yes I agree we cannot do that. I have never argued for that.

 

[loseyourname]

Hmm, do you have a reference for that? IIRC, there is evidence that life was already established on Earth in the very oldest of terrestrial rocks. Certainly that's several hundred million years after the Earth was formed, but as there are no older rocks, when it originated will have to wait until we find Earth meteorites on Mars, the Moon etc to check (or some other, indirect method).

The exact age isn't important. The only evidence that life may have existed in the very oldest rocks is that fossils found in slightly younger rocks are of the type that likely would have taken a while to evolve. Either way, it took a while for it to happen. Whether it was a million years or a billion years, it took a while. Given the fairly large amount of carbon to work with, it was a rare event. The ability to organize into life does not seem to be an intrinsic property of either carbon-based or silicon-based matter. It seems to depend very highly on the environment and on chance. To postulate the existence of "something more" that gives such matter the ability to self-organize, we must conclude that this something more was very choosy. Only a conscious being can make a choice. A conscious "something more" is a variation on an intelligent designer. Anyway, that's the conclusion I've come to reading through all of this for the past couple of months. We'll see if Sleeth agrees.

But we have, as yet, no way to test either statement. In the next five decades Mars and Io probes should either find life (or fossils) there, or at least provide much stronger limits on what sort of life isn't (and wasn't) on either.

I limited my discussion to this planet for that very reason.

But only if they got it 'right', reproducing the ancient environment correctly for example (IIRC, it's now thought their experiment modeled an environment that didn't actually exist on the early Earth).

This again corroborates my point. If there is "something more" that embues matter with the ability to organize into living systems, then it should be able to operate in any environment where such organization is possible. Such organization was possible in Urey-Miller, but did not occur, which is negative evidence for the existence of "something more" in that particular batch of matter. If the organizational capacity is entirely natural, then we would expect it to be much more heavily dependent on environment, which is in fact what we find.

 

[balkan]

really:
http://www.ai.uga.edu/~ghrosenb/chptr2.htm#_ftnref1
http://www.ai.uga.edu/~ghrosenb/book.html

some of you objective people and also physicalists out there should read it... at least if you know your physics and science, cause this guy clearly doesn't...

i like how he jumps rigth over important physical facts and establish his own physics theory... e.g. he claims the world of physics to consist of bare differences (in the life world that equals on and off, on is different from off and vice versa) but in real life physics, a particle can be in two different states... even a rather large molecule like C60 has been observed to be in two places at once! He should read some quantum mechanics and write a new book...
and the simplicity with which he governs his experiments is just amazing... circular arguments and quite blatant subjective statements that you then are supposed to take as the truth... how can any objective person read this, and still claim that this is not just another mind game? I'm really curious... his argument is ridiculously simplified and filled with subjective statements that backs up his claims, and not to mention quite obvious flaws in his knowledge about physical science...

i'm quite offended that he calls himself a "scientist"... this has nothing to do with science...

 

[Les Sleeth]

As far as I can tell, what Sleeth means by "progressive organization" is the ability of non-living matter to organize into a living system through progressive steps. It is nothing more than abiogenesis.

Yes, a means for abiogenesis. "Progressive steps" would mean, each step builds toward a higher functioning adaptive system. I am looking at the quality of that "stepping," and claiming it is atypical of physical processes.

My question is simple: If there is indeed a special quality that the first living matter possessed, why did only that batch of matter possesses this quality? As far as we can tell, life only arose once (at least on this planet), and it took close to a billion years for it to do so. If there is indeed "something more" that is responsible for this happening, what took it so long? Why has it only manifested its presence once and in such a limited capacity? There seems to be the concession that organic evolution can be accounted for through purely physical processes. If so, then "something more" only had to present in a very limited amount of matter billions of years ago and never again (also never before). If this were not the case, and "something more" was present in all matter, then we would see living systems develop in Urey-Miller type experiments! Given that this just happened to occur on a planet capable of supporting life at a good time would seem to not be chance. So is "something more," or the "general pool of consciousness," itself conscious? It certainly seems to have made a choice. If so, then you have introduced a clever variation on an intelligent designer, but an intelligent designer nonetheless.

I think it is a good question to ask why new life doesn't appear to have formed. The problem is, just this question of if we need "something more" to explain biogenesis is tough enough. To me it seems more focused to fight out one issue at a time.*

*Just a quick note, I at least haven't evisioned the "something more" as present in matter. I've usually thought of it present more like gravity, as a general effect ubiquitously present.

Regarding your question, remember, all I've said progressive organization indicates is 1) as of now, chemistry cannot be shown to be in possession of that ability, and 2) there might be an additional principle at work in conjuction with physics.

Now, if anyone wants to speculate beyond that, I am not responsible . Is the progressive principle a designer, intelligent, conscious? I personally refrain from speculating in a debate such as this because I don't think I can make the case about those things. I feel I can make the progressive organization case, and chemistry's lack of ability to achieve it. The "leap" I take from that fact I've claimed is pretty conservative: I simple suggest it might mean there is "something more." Maybe it is an organizing force, or an evolutive force. Of course, maybe it is physical too, but if so, because we have such wonderful research tools for physical principles, then I believe we should demonstrate physical organization can behave progressively.

 

[loseyourname]

Regarding your question, remember, all I've said progressive organization indicates is 1) as of now, chemistry cannot be shown to be in possession of that ability, and 2) there might be an additional principle at work in conjuction with physics.

I feel I can make the progressive organization case, and chemistry's lack of ability to achieve it. The "leap" I take from that fact I've claimed is pretty conservative: I simple suggest it might mean there is "something more." Maybe it is an organizing force, or an evolutive force. Of course, maybe it is physical too, but if so, because we have such wonderful research tools for physical principles, then I believe we should demonstrate physical organization can behave progressively.

See, I'm still a little confused. You compare it to gravity, saying at the very least it is some form of quality of matter or force acting on matter to progressively organize it. But gravity acts on all matter. It does not act selectively. If there was an organizing principle, a "something more" that was present everywhere in the universe, then experiments like Urey-Miller would work. Progressive organization would be found all over the place because this "something more" would working everywhere. Since this is obviously not the case, "something more," if it indeed exists, operates selectively. I think at some point, if you really want to develop this idea, you're going to have to at least conjecture about why this may be. What was going on back in the primordial seas that isn't going on in the lab?

 

[Les Sleeth]

Per my reply to loseyourname, the best we can say today is that life seems to have been well established in the earliest terrestrial rocks that are capable of providing such evidence (i.e. there's no trace of life in early igneous rocks, but then we wouldn't expect there to be anyway!). Another thing that's become increasingly clear is that we live the Age of Bacteria; indeed, it has always been the Age of Bacteria, and will likely be so until the Earth is fried by the Sun going red giant. Further, there's no evidence of anything but random walks from bacteria, life hasn't 'progressed' at all since it began! AFAIK, Gould first drew attention to this, and there's a marvellous chapter or two in one of his popular books explaining it (and, no doubt, a paper or six in the peer-reviewed literature).

I've read and enjoyed Gould, and Margulis as well, and believe they make good points about bacteria except, that is, that the abundance, variety, adaptability, and age of bacteria means they are more advanced than humans. If we use survivability as the determining factor, then of course we can say bacteria are tops. But in terms of the progressive development of a single organism (it doesn't seem a proper comparison to contrast millions of species of bacteria to the single species of man), humanity is tops.

I am saying quantity is one thing, quality is another. Human physiology is the finest example of evolutionary and progressive quality. What primarily determines that? Consciousness, in my opinion.

So, there doesn't seem to be much chance of making progress on discovering how life began, from local rocks. A more productive approach may be molecular reconstruction ... learn in great detail how the most primitive bacteria work, and how less primitive ones work, and maybe just maybe some reconstruction can be done ... a bit like constructing the vocabulary and grammar of proto-IndoEuropean.

Then there's Miller-Urey XXXIV, etc. Maybe that will work, maybe not; even if it does, the sheer complexity - as we now know - of the enterprise will mean it will likely take at least 50 years just to nail down the main stages with any degree of confidence.

Then there's panspermia. Perhaps before 2100, samples returned from Mars will show clearly that life began there before 3.9 bya, and seeded the Earth. Perhaps sample returns from comets will show a far richer brew of organics - that could be used as starter chemicals - than anyone has so far dreamed of.

But that's all perhaps and maybes, and I don't have a spare $trillion or three to fund an accelerated research program.

Next post, something about the time dimension, and how its passage may change the nature of our discussion.

It must be obvious to you that your research examples would operate under the assumption that life origination can be found in physical processes alone. Yes, all those offer hope that a secret of abiogenesis will be found, although it doesn't mean it will be found. I realize because there are more possibilities to investigate, nothing I can say now will prove abiogenesis is unlikely. But those possibilities do not strengthen the case for abiogenesis either.

 

[Les Sleeth]

See, I'm still a little confused. You compare it to gravity, saying at the very least it is some form of quality of matter or force acting on matter to progressively organize it. But gravity acts on all matter. It does not act selectively. If there was an organizing principle, a "something more" that was present everywhere in the universe, then experiments like Urey-Miller would work. Progressive organization would be found all over the place because this "something more" would working everywhere. Since this is obviously not the case, "something more," if it indeed exists, operates selectively. I think at some point, if you really want to develop this idea, you're going to have to at least conjecture about why this may be. What was going on back in the primordial seas that isn't going on in the lab?

You want speculation, I'll give you speculation (just kidding).

I'll suggest something or two, but it's under great protest (okay, maybe not THAT great) because of the theme of this thread, which is simply to ask if physicalness can explain everything. I am saying no it can't as yet, and that the organization necessary to create a life form is an example of what cannot be explained. By speculating about what might have done it, I am leading the discussion away from the topic.

But let's say it is like gravity, or even the effect of acceleration. Mass and acceleration engender something resembling a constricting force on the object of mass or acceleration. No mass or acceleration in a given space, and no constriction can be observed. It's almost like that potentiality sits there dormant, ready to respond, but not manifesting until specific conditions occur.

I've characterized gravity/acceleration effects as causeing "constriction" because in a way they mimic focus; that is, the effect is "focused" inward on the object of mass or acceleration. Similarly, possibly "something more" focuses (when it manifests) on the first point of organization it attaches to. Assuming that progressive organization is central to the nature of "something more," then we might imagine it is driven to manifest ever higher levels of progressive organization. It might have used the first "living" organization as a platform to evolve (once the living system could replicate) ever higher levels of progressive organization. Since its very nature is to develop/evolve, in this model we would expect there to always be a "lead point" (i.e., focal point) in its ever-upward climb of manifestation.

(Repeating something I've written before . . .) We might surmise the first instance of progressive manifestation (let's call it an "evolutive force") began when the proper conditions existed here on planet Earth, and the force of evolutiveness billions of years ago could begin its organizing ways using Earth’s chemistry to pull together a life form. Evolutiveness marshaled rich resources building system on top of system, each dedicated at first to the overall purpose of sustaining and progressing organization that could thrive in the harsh conditions of Earth.

As it developed, the living organization became an organism, and new organisms branched off to evolve in unique ways. As the planet became more supportive, eventually the evolutive force gave priority to paths with the most emanative promise (i.e., to "emanate" in the sense of manifest progressive organization), and these became the lead evolutive structures; but left behind were evolutive effects still alive in all surviving species. The non-selected forms continued to physically evolve in the sense that they could adapt to environmental conditions, but since they were no longer the vanguard of the evolutive thrust, such peripheral evolution was not where one might find continuing progression manifestation. The evolutive force continued to push, leaping up through species after species, ever seeking the highest possible expression of itself (“seeking” in the opposite sense of how water “seeks” the lowest point) until after billions of years of evolutive momentum, the modern human came about.

So what is this "highest" expression of progressive organization? Consciousness. Isn't a healthy consciousness very much about organization? Look at, for example, what determines beautiful music for consciousness. If you've ever studied music, you know there is a precise mathematical relationship between notes. Rhythm too falls in that category. Or take physical beauty; studies have shown we are attracted to symetry, which is another aspect of organization.

I say, consciousness is pure progressive organizational quality.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Of course they are not, because you have used the term progressive in a very much subjective, and biased manner.

You tend to make statements without feeling any need to follow up with evidence supporting the statements' accuracy. Here you've done so again. How exactly have I used the term progressive subjectively? I honestly can't see what you are talking about.

Define it.

I have defined it.

Define it properly.

I have defined it properly, again and again.

If you aren't satisfied with my definition, then maybe you can relate to Fliption's explanation, which I think sums it it up perfectly. He said:

"I think the issue is that if matter can progressively self organize to form what we would call complex life forms then one would expect to see on some level the ability for matter to progressively self organize. So no one is asking for proof by asking for a repeat of a billion year process. What's being asked for is a simple mechanism of progressive self organization from which an accidental masterpiece could have developed. You don't need to win the lottery to show that someone can win. You only need to show that a lottery system is in place to proof that a winner is bound to happen."

As I see it, your progressiveness rules out life, because all of life's non-repetitiveness is due to a non-repetitive environment, or an environment which it has failed to reach equilibirium in. All evolution is due to flaws, which propagate in the system.

The statement "All evolution is due to flaws" is inaccurate. Do you know why they call life an "organism"? According to you they should call it a "chaoticism."

A small percentage of evolution is due to randomness; but change is HUGELY in favor of the directions biological organization sends processes. The fact that an organism endures through chaotic situations proves the strength and adaptibility of life's organization. Also, although I realize mutation is commonly attributed to pure chance, I don't believe that is necessarily so. The "pure chance" principle is naked physicalism, and so an a priori assumption about how change must occur in an adapting system. But if there is a progressively organizing force present in life, then it could tip the "chance" scales in favor of change which leads to an organized, adaptive mutation.

Show how life is progressive self-organisation, please, and I'll point out the gaps. There seems to be just repeated assertions that it is, without anything like an attempt at justification. I am not responding to you are saying, because this sort of thing tends to get very long, and I get tired easily, and wish to focus on what I perceive to be the core problem - your very slippery notion of life itself.

First of all, you are the only one here maintaining that life isn't primarily the result of exceptional organization. I think it is you who needs to show how life is primarily the result of chaos.

Second, I don't have a "slippery notion of life." I've not proposed any new definitions for life. Why would you say that? I am relating to the same definition as most scientists -- you know, life is a metabolizing, reproducing, system capable of participating in natural selection, etc.

A human designer is an example of an accidental, physical process. The logic is self-consistent. Of course it conflicts with you granting a special role to design, and consciousness, and so on. But so what?

Now there's a well-justified statement. Rather than "self-consistant" you should have said self referencing.

P.S.
I've said nothing about design.

 

[Nereid]

My view is that many, if not most, new domains that become available for us to study, or study in more detail, reveal a richness that is rarely anticipated. These domains can be the very tiny – the Standard Model clarifying the ‘fundamental particle zoo’, or neutrino oscillations; tiny – the fractal nature of ISM grains, nanoparticles; small - the dominance of life on Earth by bacteria, quasi-crystals; … hidden oceans on Io, planetary systems, interstellar cirrus, … right up to the universe – inflation, primordial nucleosynthesis. With the richness comes a great many gaps and some gulfs, every one of which is an opportunity for ‘something more’, or ‘a god of the gaps’, or ‘new physics/chemistry/biology/whatever’. Sometimes the gaps shrink relatively quickly, (e.g. helium?, Oklo); oftentimes they take decades to show significant progress (e.g. solar neutrinos, plate tectonics, snowball Earth); and no doubt some take centuries (evolution?). Perhaps the origin of life and the hard problem of consciousness will be among this last group?

Next post, something about the time dimension, and how its passage may change the nature of our discussion.

If progress is made relatively quickly - months, years, decades - 'science' and beliefs about how well 'everything can be reduced to physics' will likely have not changed their spots in the interim. But what if it's centuries?

Example: for how many years has the source of the Sun's light and heat been studied scientifically, as part of physics? We now know the answer (though not until the 'solar neutrino problem' had been solved, just a few years ago, could we have a high degree of confidence in our understanding) - within the best physics we have today - but the question has been pondered for a very long time. How much of that time has been scientific pondering? We can't be anachronistic, and impose today's standards of what's science on the efforts of Greeks (for example).

What we now call abiogenesis may be another example; lots of ideas ('theories'?) on the origin of life proposed going way, way back. How many were 'science', or 'physics'? Starting sometime last century (or maybe the 19th?), various experimental and observational approaches got going into the origins part (as opposed to the 'what is life and how did it evolve' parts); after some initial hubris - like the early days of AI? - it became apparent that it's a much more complex - richer? - problem than it looked from 50,000' (sound familiar?). So maybe it'll take another 200 years to get an understanding comparable to that we have today of what goes on in the Sun's core, how and why?

Which brings me to (may be slightly out of context, apologies)

I simply look at what we know is present in the universe, and how the vast majority of the universe appears to work, and notice that in two instances there are major exceptions: the origin of life and the subjective aspect of consciousness. I say, only if you approach those exceptions already believing in a physicalist TOE will you automatically assume they must have a physicalist explanation. If one is uncommitted to any metaphysical stance one is free to be objective; and to say there is reason to suspect "something more" seems to me to be a pretty conservative stance to take.

Here Les and Nereid differ, enormously. In fact, we haven't a clue as to how 'the vast majority of the universe appears to work', not least because we aren't able to even 'see' it yet! (If anyone doubts this, please say so, I'd be only too happy to provide a few tiny examples). From this perspective, why worry about 'something more' (or 'god in the gaps', or whatever) for just two of the hundreds (thousands?) of such 'instances [that] are major exceptions'?

Dangerous to do for sure, but make a range of extrapolations, and estimate a range of dates by which abiogenesis and the hard problem of consciousness will have a (future) physicalist explanation. In the latter case, it may be necessary to also extrapolate to a considerable extent about 'science'. If even the minimum estimate of any extrapolation is >~100 years, why not go work on something else in philosophy?

 

[Les Sleeth]

Les: "I simply look at what we know is present in the universe, and how the vast majority of the universe appears to work, and notice that in two instances there are major exceptions: the origin of life and the subjective aspect of consciousness."

Nereid: "Here Les and Nereid differ, enormously. In fact, we haven't a clue as to how 'the vast majority of the universe appears to work', not least because we aren't able to even 'see' it yet! (If anyone doubts this, please say so, I'd be only too happy to provide a few tiny examples). . ."

What Les means by "major exception": operating outside the boundary of any known core physical principles. What are "core" principles? Universals (remember my generalist inclinations?) such as gravity, relativity, light speed, the internal forces of matter, the relationship between energy and matter, etc. One way I'd sum up core physical principles is as "mechanistic." Yes, they can be made to behave quite strangely, but physical dynamics, once discovered, are quite predictable, methodical, and, if enduring, repetitive. Is progressive organization or the subjectivity of consciousness like that? I say no.

I realize you probably think they will prove to be mechanistic or physical in the end, while I don't think physicalists have a snowball's chance in hell of demostrating it . . . so we must disagree. But if progressive organization could be shown to sponteneously occur in chemistry, or if a computer could create subjective consciousness, then I would change my mind and acknowledge that physicalism is the explanation for life and consciousness.

. . . not least because we aren't able to even 'see' it yet! (If anyone doubts this, please say so, I'd be only too happy to provide a few tiny examples). . ."

Part of the problem is that scientists are using a method (sense-dependent empiricism) which only can "see" what is physical. Really, what else do you think they can find other than physical stuff? My point is, no matter how much they see relying only on sense experience, they will never discover anything which requires a different sort of experience to know it.

. . . From this perspective, why worry about 'something more' (or 'god in the gaps', or whatever) for just two of the hundreds (thousands?) of such 'instances [that] are major exceptions'? . . . If even the minimum estimate of any extrapolation is >~100 years, why not go work on something else in philosophy?

I am not "worried" about something more, I've limited myself to saying as little about that as possible because of the theme of this thread. If you want to know the positive reasons I believe there is something more, read my thread on panpsychism. My belief is based on an experience I've practiced daily for thirty + years. Just to make it clear, I am not religious and I don't think the "something more" is supernatural.

I am working on this aspect of philosophy because I really do believe there is something more, and I also don't think physicalists in general present the strength of their case objectively. Personally, I am not very interested in anything other than the "something more" and how it works.

 

[loseyourname]

Also, although I realize mutation is commonly attributed to pure chance, I don't believe that is necessarily so. The "pure chance" principle is naked physicalism, and so an a priori assumption about how change must occur in an adapting system. But if there is a progressively organizing force present in life, then it could tip the "chance" scales in favor of change which leads to an organized, adaptive mutation.

To be fair, a mutation is only a substitution or deletion of one or several bases in a polynucleotide chain. There is absolutely no way to predict which base (out of the billions in an entire genome) will be changed or deleted, and if changed, what it will be changed to. Uncertainty really rules out the possibility of even trying to predict this process. By any definition of the word, it is a random process. Even if "something more" was responsible for directing these mutations, the very amount of information needed to make this direction purposeful would be astounding. You would need to know exactly where in a given gene the base was located, and what amino acid it coded for. You would need to know what amino acid a gene with the given substitution or deletion would code for. You would need to know exactly how the new amino acid would change the conformation of the protein it is a part of. You would need to know how this changes the enzymatic or structural properties of the protein. You would need to know how this change in property would affect the overall process of structure that the protein is a part of, then know exactly how that translates into changes on the cellular, tissue, organ, and organismic levels. We don't even understand fully how a given protein attains its conformation, so we'd be stuck on step two here.

Another thing is that the vast majority of mutations are not harmful or helpful. The vast majority of mutations have no effect on conformation whatsoever. Let's take the amino acid Arginine, for example. There are four different codons that all code for Arginine. They are CGU, CGC, CGA, and CGG. These are the mRNA sequences, of course, and the corresponding DNA sequences are GCA, GCG, GCT, and GCC. Any change in the first two bases will produce a different codon, but any change in the third will not. So 1 out of every 3 mutations in this case will not even change the codon.

Let's take the codon CGG, which corresponds to the DNA sequence GCC. Given that any change in the third base will result in the same amino acid, let's look at changes to the first two bases. Changing the first base to A, so that we have the codon AGG, still results in a codon for Arginine. UGG results in Tryptophan, and GGG results in Glycine. Now let's change the second base. CAG results in Glutamine, CCG results in Proline, and CUG results in Leucine. So we have 9 possible ways of mutating this codon (by a single substitution), 5 of which results in a different amino acid being expressed, and 4 of which result in the same amino acid being expressed. You will find similar results for base-substitutions in other codons as well. However, even changing the amino acid will not necessarily change the conformation of the protein coded for. Let's say you have Tryptophan in the original protein. You can substitute in any of the other 19 amino acids through a proper number of mutations, but only 11 of them will certainly change the conformation. Because Tryptophan is nonpolar, substituting in any other nonpolar amino acid is likely to produce exactly the same conformation (with the possible exceptions of Glycine and Alanine, because they are a good deal smaller).

Now if you start multiplying these respective probabilities together, you will see that the probability of actually getting any noticeable change in the function or structure of the organism itself is very low. Most mutations are simply neutral.

 

[loseyourname]

Another little caveat: in order to make a mutation purposeful, you would also need to know the future environmental pressures on a given population. So not only would "something more" need to know an astounding amount of molecular, cellular, physiological, and organismic biology, it would also need to be able to predict the future.

 

[Nereid]

Hey Les, I really do hope you stick around, this is really a very interesting discussion!

What Les means by "major exception": operating outside the boundary of any known core physical principles. What are "core" principles? Universals (remember my generalist inclinations?) such as gravity, relativity, light speed, the internal forces of matter, the relationship between energy and matter, etc. One way I'd sum up core physical principles is as "mechanistic."

But even here, I would say we really don't have a clue about the universals; we merely know something about what seems to work across a dozen or so OOM of time and space. For example, what sort of processes - mechanistic or otherwise - rule for dark energy and dark matter? What goes on in spaces smaller than a Planck 'metre' or between Planck 'seconds'?

Yes, they can be made to behave quite strangely, but physical dynamics, once discovered, are quite predictable, methodical, and, if enduring, repetitive. Is progressive organization or the subjectivity of consciousness like that? I say no.

But aren't you then jumping to conclusions? If it takes another 200 years to nail down even the outline of how life got going (from various chemicals, in a particular set of environments); or 300 years to be able to explain the subjectivity of consciousness, why do you say 'no'? Imagine your great-(great) grandmother and my great (etc) grandfather having a debate about the source of light and heat in the Sun - how would that differ from the debate we're having here today? Of course, science (and philosophy?) have moved on a tad since then, but otherwise? (Side note: it seems I've misunderstood your 'progressive organisation' idea; I'll need to go back and read the threads again).

I realize you probably think they will prove to be mechanistic or physical in the end, while I don't think physicalists have a snowball's chance in hell of demostrating it . . . so we must disagree.

Yes, I do think that, but I'm not worried about it (sorry, I see that 'worry' means something stronger for you than it does for me); what really matters is that the questions are still open, and may very well stay open until well after I'm gone.

But if progressive organization could be shown to sponteneously occur in chemistry, or if a computer could create subjective consciousness, then I would change my mind and acknowledge that physicalism is the explanation for life and consciousness.

That's good, and I applaud the sentiment. However, one of the things I am trying to point out - badly, as usual, it seems - is that by the time something like your test might be feasible, it's entirely possible that the very concepts will have changed so much as to make your test hopelessly ambiguous (or worse). The best analogy I can think of right now is phlogiston.

Part of the problem is that scientists are using a method (sense-dependent empiricism) which only can "see" what is physical. Really, what else do you think they can find other than physical stuff? My point is, no matter how much they see relying only on sense experience, they will never discover anything which requires a different sort of experience to know it.

Fair comment. That suggests, however, that a) this can't be studied scientifically (why not?), or b) science will never expand to encompass a deep understanding of all other sorts of experience (why not?), or c) ...

I am working on this aspect of philosophy because I really do believe there is something more, and I also don't think physicalists in general present the strength of their case objectively. Personally, I am not very interested in anything other than the "something more" and how it works.

Are there any good reasons why any 'something mores' can't be studied scientifically?

 

[Fliption]

really:
some of you objective people and also physicalists out there should read it... at least if you know your physics and science, cause this guy clearly doesn't...

I consider myself objective so I can respond.

he claims the world of physics to consist of bare differences (in the life world that equals on and off, on is different from off and vice versa) but in real life physics, a particle can be in two different states... even a rather large molecule like C60 has been observed to be in two places at once! He should read some quantum mechanics and write a new book...

Several things...

1) Does stating that the world of physics is made up of bare differences "on" and "off" and then defining them as opposites necessarily imply that they cannot both be true at the same time? I've read the text many times and I don't see this implication.

2) I've had to read this part of the text many times to even comprehend all the points. The text even admits the concept of bare differences is difficult to grasp.(I'm impressed you came to such a definitive understanding and conclusion so quickly) I'm not even sure that the "bare differences" that the author is referring to even relate to states dealt with in quantum physics(like position).

3) And does it even matter? You're suggesting that states of ON and OFF cannot entail consciousness but a combination of ON and OFF can? You will need to explain how this happens. I think the author's point is that these bare differences cannot entail consciousness regardless of how you mix the bag.

and the simplicity with which he governs his experiments is just amazing... circular arguments and quite blatant subjective statements that you then are supposed to take as the truth... how can any objective person read this, and still claim that this is not just another mind game? I'm really curious... his argument is ridiculously simplified and filled with subjective statements that backs up his claims, and not to mention quite obvious flaws in his knowledge about physical science...

Speaking of subjectivity...this paragraph above is full of it. You may be correct but it helps in a response if you can point to specific statesments of subjectivity. Also make sure the subjective pieces are relevant to the conclusions of the text.

i'm quite offended that he calls himself a "scientist"... this has nothing to do with science...

This is a philosophy text. Not science. The author's scope is vastly different from a scientist's. But again, it would help if you pointed to specific facts of physics that are contradicted. The one above about bare differences and quantum physics seem a bit interpretive and possibly misunderstood.

Also, if you don't agree with some of the basic assumptions of this paper in the end, then you'll need to be prepared to explain how you will someday be able to communicate the experience of red to a blind man with your facts of physics. To me, this text simply documents in a philosophical manner the "whys" and "hows" of what we all know to be obviously true.

Oh yeah. Don't forget to be objective.

 

[FZ+]

I think the issue is that if matter can progressively self organize to form what we would call complex life forms then one would expect to see on some level the ability for matter to progressively self organize.

Come on! Don't patronise me. That isn't a definition at all. That's just an unsupported assertion of a need for a so-called demonstration of progressive organisation, without actually identifying what progressive organisation is. Try defining progressive organisation without referring to progressive organizing (which is tautological), complexity (which means different things to different people), higher (which misses the whole point of evolution, and also is specific to a set of criteria) and life. (which is circular logic)

A small percentage of evolution is due to randomness;

Which tape measure are you using? How on Earth can you talk about percentages?

Evolution =

Inheritance
Randomness
Selection

All 3 have a 100% role.

First of all, you are the only one here maintaining that life isn't primarily the result of exceptional organization.

Your logic is out of date. Chaos and organisation go hand in hand. The issue I am attacking is this special case you raise of "progressive organisation". Evolution isn't magic. Neither is life. They follow the laws of a chaotic universe - that, under certain circumstances, they undergo changes in their system, and that under changing circumstances, they keep changing. What my attacks centre on is the notion that you can generate this holy progressive organisation, and allow life, and life only. To do this, it seems to me that you can only inject gigantic volumes of subjectivity to keep things afloat. Physicalism is entirely self consistent.

 

[FZ+]

My only point to Les has been made into a mountain. If I change the words to say "human" designer versus random chance, then I say you would choose random chance for the car on Mars for all the reasons I stated. Is that better?

No, because that question is still loaded.

Imagine if I asked you this question:
A car is found by Mars. Why was it there? An unconscious physical human, or another unconscious cause.

Would you accept it? By the phrasing of the question, you assume a difference, when the whole point of my viewpoint is that there is no difference. To me, a valid option-list would be: "human" designer versus *another example* of random chance

To which, my answer would be: I don't know, since both look pretty unlikely, and I can only give a quick, and probably inaccurate guess. I won't treat human design causes any differently to how I would treat other so-called random chance effects.

I'm not sure if you're going to go down the infinite path of asking for definitions like "what is willful?"

Don't tempt me... To me, something done willfully implies that it was done to fulfil the goal of that will, however abstract that maybe. Hence, if we want a design-based debate at all, we need a designer, and a particular viewpoint by which we can assess how well it fulfills a goal. If we have never seen a human, if we cannot even concieve of the need for personal transport, we can't say the car looks like it has been designed.

Surely you aren't denying a correlation? One does not lead to the other I agree but one only has to look at the fact that things designed by conscious beings have a tendency to be very rare where there are no conscious beings.

But that doesn't work the other way round. Because it is rare, we can't say is must be designed by conscious beings which gave up on it. Because it is not rare, we can't say that it must have been mass-produced by conscious beings. Same for probability.

I have never argued for that.

Well, there you go. The sum result of that particular argument was that the Design Argument doesn't work. That was all I was trying to say.

 

[balkan]

I consider myself objective so I can respond.



Several things...

1) Does stating that the world of physics is made up of bare differences "on" and "off" and then defining them as opposites necessarily imply that they cannot both be true at the same time? I've read the text many times and I don't see this implication.

2) I've had to read this part of the text many times to even comprehend all the points. The text even admits the concept of bare differences is difficult to grasp.(I'm impressed you came to such a definitive understanding and conclusion so quickly) I'm not even sure that the "bare differences" that the author is referring to even relate to states dealt with in quantum physics(like position).

3) And does it even matter? You're suggesting that states of ON and OFF cannot entail consciousness but a combination of ON and OFF can? You will need to explain how this happens. I think the author's point is that these bare differences cannot entail consciousness regardless of how you mix the bag.



Speaking of subjectivity...this paragraph above is full of it. You may be correct but it helps in a response if you can point to specific statesments of subjectivity. Also make sure the subjective pieces are relevant to the conclusions of the text.



This is a philosophy text. Not science. The author's scope is vastly different from a scientist's. But again, it would help if you pointed to specific facts of physics that are contradicted. The one above about bare differences and quantum physics seem a bit interpretive and possibly misunderstood.

Also, if you don't agree with some of the basic assumptions of this paper in the end, then you'll need to be prepared to explain how you will someday be able to communicate the experience of red to a blind man with your facts of physics. To me, this text simply documents in a philosophical manner the "whys" and "hows" of what we all know to be obviously true.

Oh yeah. Don't forget to be objective.

does it matter?
he's leaving out an entire dimension! and have somehow managed to get in his head, that a world of stationary cells that are on or off, can be a representation of a world of particles and motion... that's pretty astounding... and let's not forget both the uncertainty principle which cannot be related in any way to the life game, but plays a huge part in real life physics...
there's no probability involved either, which is mega essential to everything related to physics, and even if there was probability involved, this would require something to randomly decide which event should be chosen... and if this should not be a pattern based random number generator like we use in our computers, then we have a problem cause that would mean that the computer either conciously had to choose (at which point you would have intelligence in the computer) or that you would have to draw from a real life measured source with exactly the same properties as the one in the computer...
and let's not forget, that even while only being a one dimensional program, and infinite grid is highly hypothetical and that there cause of that is no possible way of having infinite complexity...

moreover:
i have yet to learn about a game of life type program that could actually successfully represent something physical, except for hypothetical and theoretical things like fluctuations in the economy, which isn't in any way related to physics...
so wow... he proved by using an example that cannot represent anything physical, that since it cannot explain conciousness, physics can either...
what an accomplishment...

if there was a game of life in that regard, that followed all my requirements for being a physical representation, it would only be responsive to what the computer tells it to, and thus, the game of life wouldn't be conscious, the computer would...

 

[Fliption]

To me, a valid option-list would be: "human" designer versus *another example* of random chance

This is all you had to say, FZ.

So Les, If I factor in this text that FZ has presented above... his view is the sort that will choose a non-human random process for what is clearly an automobile created by a human to the rest of us, simply because he doesn't want his subjective Earth notions of what an automobile is to be projected onto Mars.

Don't tempt me... To me, something done willfully implies that it was done to fulfil the goal of that will, however abstract that maybe. Hence, if we want a design-based debate at all, we need a designer, and a particular viewpoint by which we can assess how well it fulfills a goal. If we have never seen a human, if we cannot even concieve of the need for personal transport, we can't say the car looks like it has been designed.

I mentioned the concepts 'conscious' and 'will'. I don't believe they need to equate to a goal other than fulfilling a conscious desire. I really don't understand the extreme you have to go to here to keep your views intact. This might amuse anyone else reading...

If FZ came home one day and found all his things thrown outside and torn up he would have this dialogue with the police.

Police: So FZ, do you think a storm reached down into your chimney and pulled all these things out or do you think that someone intentionally did this?

FZ: I don't understand the question officer. How can anything be more intentional then a storm? Everything is random chance.

Policeman(after glancing at his partner with a "what a nutjob" glance): So you don't want to investigate and press charges?

FZ: Against a storm? Of course not. It would never show up into court anyway.

But that doesn't work the other way round. Because it is rare, we can't say is must be designed by conscious beings which gave up on it. Because it is not rare, we can't say that it must have been mass-produced by conscious beings. Same for probability.

Of course it doesn't work the other way around. Who said it did? Who's talking about a "Design" argument? You're equating me to some preconceived notion of what a design argument is. Your comments above are quite obvious and I can't really understand why you think it needs to be pointed out. Unless you aren't understanding my point. My only point on this issue has always been that while odds cannot be conclusive, for all the reasons you state, they should not be totally ignored either. When a decision needs to be made about which direction scientific inquiry should go, the correlation that the odds of something existing have with "how" those things come into existence, should be a weighing factor. It is only another tool, a possible indicator. We have a whole branch of mathematics that tells us these correlations are useful called "statistics". I don't understand why it doesn't apply in FZ's PF world because I know it does in his real world.

Well, there you go. The sum result of that particular argument was that the Design Argument doesn't work. That was all I was trying to say.

What design argument? You're swatting invisible flies. I'll argue that odds should be used as an indicator regardless of what the topic is...design, dogs, or pea gravy; You name it.

 

[balkan]

and about the mary example... please!
let's see, she spends all her life in a black and white cell, watching black and white TV, learning about wavelengths and how the brain responds to the color red... but she doesn't know how red looks like...
wow... astounding... given that the human brain has to learn how to see colours, and learn to see at all actually... just like you have to learn the alphabet, but wouldn't be able to read it just by hearing about it... this has nothing to do with "something else" and everything to do with neurology. If she had learned the wavelength of red ligth and could see the wavelength when exposed to it, then she could by herself learn that it was red ligth, without someone having to tell her...

if seeing colors (or seeing in general) isn't learned within a certain timespan from being born, the human brain is almost incapable of learning it... this is due to the fact that the centers that learn this, has to be activated through impulses for this particular neural circuit to be built properly... this curcuit also influences ones ability to see colors...

why would there be colorblind people if "something else" had anything to do with it? why couldn't "something else" teach her? that's weird... i guess that the "something else" theory proves just as false...

explaining the experience of red to a man that has never seen it... man, that is just such a typical philosophical way of arguing around anything that can't be explained rationally...
"you can't do that, so physicalism is false"...
could you explain what "round" is to man that has been blind and senseless for all his life? no... cause his brain hasn't learned the concept of "round" yet, so his ability to relate to that is not functioning... this again has nothing to do with the communication of the data, but with neurology...

marys brain haven't learned to see red, so unfortunately she would be unable to understand a description of "red" no matter if i used "something else" or physics... so is "something else" false as well?
why can't "something else" make blind people see or colorblind people see color? where does the "something else" come to play with the mary mind game? why doesn't the blind senseless man know about the concept of "round" if influenced by "something else"?

physicalism can explain everything about red light... including how it is "seen" by the eye and eventually it will be able to directly explain how the neurosystem reacts to the impulses... the fact that we have to learn colours, like we have to learn how to hear different sounds or how to read, is obviously just another thing amongs many that this type of philosophy can gladly shuffle around in order to prove a hypothetical point...
besides, physics isn't supposed to concern itself with how the color red is perceived by people, since it will be sligthly different from individual to individual due to differences in the build of their neurological circuits and how they have learned to see that particular color. Physics deals with the nature of ligth, not the perception of the color... the actual action of perception of the color can be explained as well...

i'm having less and less respect for philosophy each day I'm afraid... at least this type of philosophy which is all mind games and rhetorics... I've said before that when science and philosophy go hand in hand, they support each other well, but when philosophy tries to prove something without the use of anything but subjective statements and thought examples that cannot be in any way tested for being practically possible, then it all goes down the ****ter...

 

[Les Sleeth]

i'm having less and less respect for philosophy each day I'm afraid... at least this type of philosophy which is all mind games and rhetorics... I've said before that when science and philosophy go hand in hand, they support each other well, but when philosophy tries to prove something without the use of anything but subjective statements and thought examples that cannot be in any way tested for being practically possible, then it all goes down the ****ter...

After being made so dense by your opinionated and closeminded ways you can't embrace the philosophical method, you conclude it is philosophy that's the problem. I love it! Thanks for the case study in projection.

 

[Fliption]

and about the mary example... please!

This post wreaks of objectivity.

wow... astounding... given that the human brain has to learn how to see colours, and learn to see at all actually... just like you have to learn the alphabet, but wouldn't be able to read it just by hearing about it... this has nothing to do with "something else" and everything to do with neurology.

Are you suggesting that a baby has absolutely zero experiences? Why is it crying? I disagree strongly that qualia does not exist in babies. It's impossble for you say anything about qualia with certainty and there's every indication that babies do have experiences. What an individual learns is to categorize and make sense of it's experiences but it has them none the less.

why would there be colorblind people if "something else" had anything to do with it? why couldn't "something else" teach her? that's weird... i guess that the "something else" theory proves just as false...

The same reason that physics doesn't teach a blind man to see. Why is "something else" any different? I sense some preconceived notions about what "something else" might be. Despite the caveats posted about doing just that.

physicalism can explain everything about red light...

But it can say nothing about my experience of that red light.

besides, physics isn't supposed to concern itself with how the color red is perceived by people, since it will be sligthly different from individual to individual due to differences in the build of their neurological circuits and how they have learned to see that particular color. Physics deals with the nature of ligth, not the perception of the color...

Well something must deal with it? Biology? I don't understand why perception would be off limits to science. It seems like it would be an extremely valuable thing to understand why people perceive things differently. We could avoid wars even. Why would we not study it since perception is so easily understood to be brain activity? The truth is, science doesn't have a clue why light within a certain wavelength should have a specific qualia attached to it. Even if we concede that qualia is learned, science cannot tell us how the experience is generated. The truth is that science cannot possibly know what my experience is. There is no way for it to measure it. It can only know what I tell it. The only reason a scientist knows that qualia exists to begin with is because of his/her own experiences. How in the world does a world of circuits and data turn into subjectivity that cannot be communicated? That's what I want to know as I study. I cannot turn to science? Where do I turn?

the actual action of perception of the color can be explained as well...

This is either a gross misunderstanding of terminolgy or it is a blatant lie. There are tons of literature on this topic. I can't wait for you to singled handed pick apart every single text on this topic as if only you see the absurdity.

i'm having less and less respect for philosophy each day I'm afraid... at least this type of philosophy which is all mind games and rhetorics...

I have to say that I take this personally. I honestly do want to understand the world around me. I have no interest in tricking myself into believing something. If I wanted to do that, I'd go to a church. It would be a lot easier than having to read all the stuff I have to read to participate here. Now you may think the view is absurd, but this doesn't necessarily equate to people who are open to it having an agenda that deserves this tone. I honestly see issue with what you're saying on this topic. Believe it. It's shocking to me as well whenever someone disagrees with what seems so obvious to me but I've learned it's a fact of nature. That's why I'm careful not to write off a mass of people in one swoop just because a few pages I read sound absurd to me. I've been wrong before! :surprise: But never in PF.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Another little caveat: in order to make a mutation purposeful, you would also need to know the future environmental pressures on a given population. So not only would "something more" need to know an astounding amount of molecular, cellular, physiological, and organismic biology, it would also need to be able to predict the future.

Well, that's the "something more" you envision, I see it a bit differently. Let’s compare situations where an infant being cared for by loving, attentive adults is suddenly moved to an environment where the adults who care for him constantly fight and are spaced out on drugs. Even though the child doesn’t intellectually understand what’s going on, he will feel the difference, and that difference can affect his development. Similarly, would I suggest that if the progressively organizing force is part of the inner environment of life, the odds of adaptive mutation occurring when it needs to might increase in favor of adaption.

By the way, studies being conducted (such as the QSC research by Gao Shan that Radar mentioned in another thread) are exploring the possibility of consciousness being able to affect things on a quantum level. We might imagine that any living awareness, once sensing the need to adapt, could have an effect on its own genetics.

 

[Fliption]

does it matter?
he's leaving out an entire dimension! and have somehow managed to get in his head, that a world of stationary cells that are on or off, can be a representation of a world of particles and motion...

I didn't see this post until after I responded to the last one.

I think you're mind is made up. I would encourage you to read more and definitely look into and participate in Hypnagogues postings on this topic.

BTW, I'm not convince of any of this myself but I do understand the relevance a bit more than you seem to and I'll be open to it for that reason only.

 

[Nereid]

By the way, studies being conducted (such as the QSC research by Gao Shan that Radar mentioned in another thread) are exploring the possibility of consciousness being able to affect things on a quantum level. We might imagine that any living awareness, once sensing the need to adapt, could have an effect on its own genetics.

I'm all for experiments!

This one sounds like it will have a rather difficult time of controlling the confounding effects.

How does the idea which seems to motivate this experiment differ from Lamarckism?

 

[Les Sleeth]

Come on! Don't patronise me. That isn't a definition at all. That's just an unsupported assertion of a need for a so-called demonstration of progressive organisation, without actually identifying what progressive organisation is. Try defining progressive organisation without referring to progressive organizing (which is tautological), complexity (which means different things to different people), higher (which misses the whole point of evolution, and also is specific to a set of criteria) and life. (which is circular logic)

Patronize? I don't know what you are talking about. I have defined it, everybody else here knows what I am saying whether they agree or not. What's your problem FZ? Are you waiting for me to define it in a way that you can finally find fault with the definition?

All your logic criticisms are bogus too. You are just parroting concepts. You don't even know what you are saying, because if you did you'd explain yourself instead of just dropping mindless fecal matter all over the place.

Which tape measure are you using? How on Earth can you talk about percentages?

Evolution =

Inheritance
Randomness
Selection

All 3 have a 100% role.

Wow, talk about a disconnect! Do you think any of that happens OUTSIDE the established system of biology?

Your logic is out of date. Chaos and organisation go hand in hand. The issue I am attacking is this special case you raise of "progressive organisation". Evolution isn't magic. Neither is life. They follow the laws of a chaotic universe - that, under certain circumstances, they undergo changes in their system, and that under changing circumstances, they keep changing. What my attacks centre on is the notion that you can generate this holy progressive organisation, and allow life, and life only. To do this, it seems to me that you can only inject gigantic volumes of subjectivity to keep things afloat. Physicalism is entirely self consistent.

Life is a sytem, first and foremost. Virtually every single bit of chemistry that happens in it is programmed to do so. It is an incredible machine, a machine that is organized to function in accordance with the environment we call nature. Whatever "randomness" that occurs is mostly overwhelmed by the strength of the bio-system. And when the systemic aspect can't prevail, that's when the system is damaged or destroyed.

 

[Les Sleeth]

I'm all for experiments!

Hi Nereid, I've not forgotten about you. I wanted to think about your previous post a bit before responding.

This one sounds like it will have a rather difficult time of controlling the confounding effects.

I agree. Dr. Shan, I believe, is looking into the possibility that consciousness is a new property of matter, so as far as I can tell his approach is strictly physicalist. I also gleaned from his comments (he generously offered a brief explanation of his work in my thread on panpsychism) that his concept of consciousness is modeled somewhat on how a computer functions.

How does the idea which seems to motivate this experiment differ from Lamarckism?

I don't think it is motivated by Lamarckian concepts at all. I think his experiments take off from the observed wave function collapse in non-locality experiments. I personally don't know how it can be established that the wave collapse isn't the result of the physical aspects of observation (i.e., photon interference), but then I've not kept up with the latest developments in this area. Fliption seems to think there is reason to suspect consciousness itself might have a quantum effect.

 

[Fliption]

Fliption seems to think there is reason to suspect consciousness itself might have a quantum effect.

Well there are studies that I have posted that show a correlation between wave collapse and the potential for knowledge. Exactly how this relates to consciousness I'm not sure.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Well there are studies that I have posted that show a correlation between wave collapse and the potential for knowledge. Exactly how this relates to consciousness I'm not sure.

Could you post them again? I might give it another look.