Can Martial Artists Sense Danger Before It Happens?

[FredGarvin]

What is the most dramatic but legitimate feat of this type that you have seen or heard about? I 've seen guys break five or six two by fours with their hand where no apparent mechanical advantage was involved. This seems to defy reason...how could the bones remain intact? Are these all rigged?

Perrsonally, the most impressive breaks I have seen were done on a standard piece of pine, approximately 12" x 12" x .5", that was tossed in the air and struck. That demonstration showed not real power, but speed and focus. That impresses me a thousand times more than some 250 pound behemoth standing over a stack of boards. IMO.

 

[FredGarvin]

I started out in Aikido. The physics in terms of rotation is awesome. I'm working on a project that deals with this aspect of martial arts.

It is indeed a wonderful thing. Like everything else, it has it's place. It gives you a great sense of the energy within the movement of two people. How it rises and falls constantly. If you're intereste in sharing the project I'd be interested to hear it.

 

[MaxS]

I've studied martial arts for 10 years, that man is a scammer but many of the things you people are talking about are completely legitimate.

Pressure points for instance are just weak points in muscles (and between muscles) and can be found at very specific points on the body. When hit they simply cause sharp pain - different from a regular strike, its an acute stabbing sensation that I'm sure many of you have felt. They don't stop the flow of blood to the brain or anything lol.

There IS a way to pinch nerves and halt bloodflow to the brain though by striking simultaneously both sides of the neck (along the arteries) with straight ridge hands (think chopping). This CAN pinch the nerves resulting in a temporary blackout (This is also taught in military martial arts or MIPMAPS and is completely legitimate).

As for breaking boards and concrete and shattering bones, well, it is legit and sometimes people DO break bones breaking concrete. There is no trick involved except for the way you hit the board or concrete, that is, many people make the mistake of trying to hit through the board with continuous pressure, this results in a bruised hand or foot. The way to do it is by making a fast strike and pulling back (sort of like the crack of a whip) - this will result in snapping the board. As for concrete you really do have to strike through.

 

[FredGarvin]

Pressure points for instance are just weak points in muscles (and between muscles) and can be found at very specific points on the body. When hit they simply cause sharp pain - different from a regular strike, its an acute stabbing sensation that I'm sure many of you have felt. They don't stop the flow of blood to the brain or anything lol.

No one is debating the legitimacy of pressure points. My wife is a massage therapist and she has studied trigger points (a bit different, but the same results). Both theories are put to the test most every day I step on the mats.

There IS a way to pinch nerves and halt bloodflow to the brain though by striking simultaneously both sides of the neck (along the arteries) with straight ridge hands (think chopping). This CAN pinch the nerves resulting in a temporary blackout (This is also taught in military martial arts or MIPMAPS and is completely legitimate).

You're mixing things up just a bit. There is a way to "pinch nerves" and halt the blood flow through striking arteries? Like I mentioned before, I need to get some more information on any nerve that has complete control like that. Striking the arterys in the neck is something different. Collapsing an aretery or two would explain the effects.

As for breaking boards and concrete and shattering bones, well, it is legit and sometimes people DO break bones breaking concrete.

Again, I'm not saying it's not legit in some cases, but there are many that are not and with all of them, I question the need. Board breaking, IMO is a circus side show.

 

[H-bar None]

Board or bone breaking in G. Physics is due to impulse. The longer the hands maintain contact with the surface of the board the more damage inflicted on the hands.

 

[FredGarvin]

I did see a show a while back that attempted to explain some of the "mysterious" aspects of the MA. Most of the show was pretty much crap, but it did have one segment that was worth watching. It involved a test with two people; one was a joe off the street and the other was a legitimate Shaolin Monk who teaches in Brooklyn, NY. The test had both men break a board with one strike. The testers measured the displacement of the person's hand and backed out the speed of the strike. Both men broke the board. However, the plot of displacement vs. time showed a pretty large differernce. The regular joe had a plot that looked like a bell shaped curve with a large standard deviation showing that his strike was taking a long period of time. The monk's however was a similar graph, but with a much shorter duration, showing the much shorter time frame in which his strike took place.

 

[Happeh]

Hi everyone. I've heard that martial artists can somehow foresee an event before it actually happens. There is a test in which the student kneels, and the teacher behind him strikes with a sword, and so the student must avoid the strike by rolling. According to the people that have passed this test, it is impossible to feel the movement of the sword with the ordinary senses because of the great speed, but they rather "sense" a great fear of being killed and then they react. Do you have any insights on how this can be done? If there is no time for them to react, how can they "know" that they have to roll over? In terms of physics, how can one interact with an environment so quickly? Thanks in advance.

People have energy. Lots of people have energy naturally. Martial arts develop a persons energy. The amount of energy they have and their ability to sense energy.

When a person is going to attack you, his intent, his thoughts, are about hurting the other person. The other person picks this up and moves accordingly.

In terms of physics? The martial artist has a faster warning system than you do. You think the man is attacking when you see the sword move. The martial artists knows the guy is attacking when the man clearly thinks "I am attacking now". Before his muscles move or anything the other martial arts guy can be receiving a warning.

 

[Happeh]

Recently I saw a show about a guy who claimed he could stop people's hearts with a special nerve pinch.

The advanced guys don't even have to do that. They can kill someone without touching them.

You know how Darth Vader choked that guy out in the first Star War movies? Vader made that choking motion with his hands and the guy started choking? That is real. People can really do that.

The martial arts guy just reaches into the other guys body and stops his heart.

 

[Happeh]

http://videos.subfighter.com/highlights/other/Dimmak Death Touch Fraud.wmv

try this instead. basically the dude can't get his stuff to work on anyone besides
his own students.

This is not a fair test. The people involved do not understand what is going on so they cannot explain it properly.

The EMT's recorded that the people went into shock. That their heart was affected. They were truly mystified why it happened. They acted like it should not have happened at all. To me, that proves that people have energy. If the students are faking falling down...well, it still proves people have energy if their heart rate went up and they went into shock.

The reason it does not work on the Jiu Jitsu guys is the same reason you cannot scare police or gang members or soldiers. They are used to it. Their training hardens them against that kind of attacks. They literally become hard so the energy cannot get inside of them as easily. If you look at the people falling down, they all looked like soft bodies.

 

[Happeh]

What is the most dramatic but legitimate feat of this type that you have seen or heard about? I 've seen guys break five or six two by fours with their hand where no apparent mechanical advantage was involved. This seems to defy reason...how could the bones remain intact? Are these all rigged?

The bones are protected by the build up of flesh and, for lack of an accurate descriptive term, chi. If you look at the hands of these people they will be very thick. Sometimes twice as thick as normal peoples hands. When they hit, they can harden this area to something resembling steel.

A buddy of mine was in the navy. He was talking to some guy from the Philipines I think he said. The guy says "watch this" and did a full power elbow on a steel pole on the navy ship they were on. My buddy said the guy dented the pole. Even though it wasn't much of a dent, most people would have broken an arm doing that.

 

[Happeh]

You're mixing things up just a bit. There is a way to "pinch nerves" and halt the blood flow through striking arteries? Like I mentioned before, I need to get some more information on any nerve that has complete control like that. Striking the arterys in the neck is something different. Collapsing an aretery or two would explain the effects.

You are looking for the wrong thing. It is not nerves. It is acupuncture points. The two are not the same. You need to read some chinese medicine books to get an idea of what you are looking for.

 

[extreme_machinations]

Happeh ,can You Elaborate On How People Can Be Killed Without Being Touched ?
Does It Work If The Other Guy Closes His Eyes , I Mean Is It Psychosomatic? Or Does It Have Someting To Do With Chi , Which My Intuition Tells Me Is Not For Real .

 

[Happeh]

Happeh ,can You Elaborate On How People Can Be Killed Without Being Touched ?
Does It Work If The Other Guy Closes His Eyes , I Mean Is It Psychosomatic? Or Does It Have Someting To Do With Chi , Which My Intuition Tells Me Is Not For Real .

No it is not psychosomatic. You mean the person believes that they should die so they die. Right?

It is induction. There are many ways, many metaphorical comparisons that can be made to get the point across. I use words and comparisons that I feel comfortable with. I say that people have energy. You could view it as you are an intelligence that is an electromagnetic field that floats around. That field moves into and takes over your body to do what you want.

The way a person kills somone is that their electromagnetic field reaches into the other person's body and takes control of it. You can kill a person, choke them or control them like a marionette. This phenomenon is what the concept of possession is based on.

Did you ever watch the movie Scanners? Of course it is a movie with special effects that are fake. The underlying idea is sound and accurate. People controlling the bodies of other people.

If you don't like the electromagnetic field controlling the body analogy, use whatever you feel comfortable with. I say energy because what else does science know about that is invisible but can induce an observable physical reaction? A laser is a good example. You can't see the beam but it will burn you.

You cannot see what is occurring between the two people. You can only observe the physical actions of the controller and the person being controlled. Their actions clue you to what is going on the same way that if somone turns on a laser, and another person starts jumping around in pain, you know the first person must have aimed the laser at the second person. Even though you cannot see the laser beam.

 

[MaxS]

CRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK HEAD

 

[FredGarvin]

Happeh, pardon my french, but you are full of it. I let a lot slide when it comes to martial arts folklore and mysticism, but you are in la la land.

 

[Happeh]

For guys that are so smart, you don't think too good do you? You are so certain of what you know your head is like a block of iron. Impervious to knowledge that does not fit into what you believe.

If you were true scientists, instead of laughing like a couple of chuckleheads hanging out in front of the local liquor store, you would say "Can your prove this? Is there some evidence you have of this?" Or, if you are capable of critical analysis, you would say "Happeh. I do not understand this point here. Could you elaborate please"?

First impressions are important. The impression that you have given is that you rush to judgement without properly investigating the situation. You give lip service only to the scientific method.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Even though the claims made are pretty far out there, I agree that everyone needs to be respectful. Name calling and pot shots do nothing to counter the claim.

 

[FredGarvin]

For guys that are so smart, you don't think too good do you? You are so certain of what you know your head is like a block of iron. Impervious to knowledge that does not fit into what you believe.

If you were true scientists, instead of laughing like a couple of chuckleheads hanging out in front of the local liquor store, you would say "Can your prove this? Is there some evidence you have of this?" Or, if you are capable of critical analysis, you would say "Happeh. I do not understand this point here. Could you elaborate please"?

First impressions are important. The impression that you have given is that you rush to judgement without properly investigating the situation. You give lip service only to the scientific method.

There is no elaboration needed. You have made your opinions quite clear. I too am doing just that. I do not pretend to know everything, but I have seen a lot of claims in my short time. Your claims are not reasonable. A person killing another person without being touched? Well, with a weapon, ok, but with:

The way a person kills somone is that their electromagnetic field reaches into the other person's body and takes control of it.

That is quite off the map. Statements like that go through my "critical analysis machine" right away. I would be more than happy to see any kind of NON-ANECDOTAL evidence that this, or anything else you have said, is possible.

Yes, first impressions are important. You give the impression of a person who has read or heard stories regarding these concepts and taken them too seriously. This is exactly the kind of stuff that floats around out there that gives martial arts a bad name.

 

[FredGarvin]

Even though the claims made are pretty far out there, I agree that everyone needs to be respectful. Name calling and pot shots do nothing to counter the claim.

Agreed and understood. I have had a rough week with "alternative theories" this week.

 

[inha]

Let's assume that these powers are real for a moment. If they don't work on people who can fight, a street brawler or a trained fighter for example, what's the use of them? To kill old ladies that cut you off in a line?

 

[Happeh]

Let's assume that these powers are real for a moment. If they don't work on people who can fight, a street brawler or a trained fighter for example, what's the use of them? To kill old ladies that cut you off in a line?

To give someone like Bill Clinton a heart attack.

Wasn't it convenient Clinton had a heart episode requiring surgery right at the end of the campaign so he could not stump for Kerry? If Clinton had continued campaigning for Kerry, Bush would have lost.

To control people. If you anger me and I get upset, I make you sick until you apologize.

True story. Names changed to protect the innocent.

To protect my family. Let's say some very angry man is approaching my son. I do not know the man's intentions but I can tell he is very angry almost to the point of violence. I can take control of the man and make him go away.

True story. Names changed to protect the innocent.

To get people to have sex with me. Did you see the second Matrix? You know that incredbily tedious sequence with the...Watchmaker? when he was giving that girl in the restaurant an orgasm? That is possible. The women don't know what it is, they just know they feel good when they are around you. Works the other way too. Women doing it to men. The men don't know why, they just love being around that woman.

True story. Names changed to protect the innocent.

To sell people things. They come to my store looking. I control them so they buy something expensive.

True story. Names changed to protect the innocent.

In all the above examples, I am saying me and I for ease. I can't do none of that. ;0

 

[Happeh]

That is quite off the map. Statements like that go through my "critical analysis machine" right away. I would be more than happy to see any kind of NON-ANECDOTAL evidence that this, or anything else you have said, is possible.

Yes, first impressions are important. You give the impression of a person who has read or heard stories regarding these concepts and taken them too seriously. This is exactly the kind of stuff that floats around out there that gives martial arts a bad name.

It may be off the map but that is no reason to say in front of everyone "you are in la la land". People kick me, I kick them back.

I would say that you are a person living in a false reality. I would guess you have little actual experience in the martial arts. If you do have experience in the martial arts, I would guess your instructors were not talented.

I do know what I am talking about and what I said about these abilities is accurate.

Proof huh? I bet you have already seen the proof. You just don't recognize it. The proof is around you every day. Are you married? If you observed your wife carefully, your interactions with her and your reactions to her, I bet you would find some corroborative proof. As you can see by the examples in the other post, the power is much more useful than something as wasteful as killing someone.

 

[Daminc]

Just a few points. I first started MA when I was 8. I'm now 34. Most of the MA experience has been with Karate (Wado Ryu & Shotokan) which is basically non-combative. However, we get taught basic Akido in the Army (British) and I was also in RCoS Army Judo team. I've also briefly touched upon Ninjitsu and Jeet Kun Do.

There is a nerve point above and to the left of the heart that can cause it to 'stammer' briefly. This can be dangerous to someone with a weak heart but it is usually used to temperarily weaken a person (try pressing the point with two fingers it's not hard to find).

There is a nerve point underneath the jaw (by the jugular). gripping the side of the neck with 4 fingers whilst simultanously pushing upwards with your thumb on the other side of the neck can cause 3 things to happen: restrict air flow resulting in panic, restrict blood flow to the brain resulting in dizziness (ball of the thumb constricting the jugular), and finally pain caused by sharply pressing the nerve point. (I've only used this twice in a fight: once when some drunk got a bit boisterous, I didn't want to hurt him so I applied this move, his back to the wall, and he passed out very quickly and the second time a person who I knew attacked me and I used this tactic to supress him in order to find out what the trouble was.)

I've seen the theory of 'death attacks' and there is two that I know of.

1) Simultaniously striking two major nerve centres above and below the heart causing a 'short circuit' and a heart attack.

2) The base of the sternum is a nest of nerves which, if struck right, can break resulting in a rather painful death.

The ESP aspect you've been talking about is closer to instinct combat more than anything else and can be used by those that have trained to a point they don't have to think about what they are doing anymore.

Happeh, it seems that most of your examples can be explained by the use of psychology (which most good fighters should be adept at).

There are a lot more practical nerve points that are more useful. For example, the one under the cheek bone can be used to control the opponents head placement. The one between the thumb and the first finger can be used to make the hand open. The one just above the elbow (on the side closest to your body) can temperarily stun the arm etc, etc

There are many more but it isn't wise to use them unless you study, train and respect the methods.

 

[FredGarvin]

It may be off the map but that is no reason to say in front of everyone "you are in la la land". People kick me, I kick them back.

Puh-lease.

I would say that you are a person living in a false reality. I would guess you have little actual experience in the martial arts. If you do have experience in the martial arts, I would guess your instructors were not talented.

You do have a penchant for expressing your notions as fact. I especially like how you reference yourself to prove your own points.

I do know what I am talking about and what I said about these abilities is accurate.

I am getting the hint that everything you say is factual. Is this your web site?

http://www.angrypenis.org/

If so, I have a great insight into just what you "know" as being true.

Proof huh? I bet you have already seen the proof. You just don't recognize it. The proof is around you every day. Are you married? If you observed your wife carefully, your interactions with her and your reactions to her, I bet you would find some corroborative proof. As you can see by the examples in the other post, the power is much more useful than something as wasteful as killing someone.

You obviously have no idea as to what the words "proof" and "anecdotal" mean.

 

[FredGarvin]

I really don't care to put down my MA resume. But if needs be I will.

There is a nerve point above and to the left of the heart that can cause it to 'stammer' briefly. This can be dangerous to someone with a weak heart but it is usually used to temperarily weaken a person (try pressing the point with two fingers it's not hard to find).

I have seen this happen as well as a sharp blow to the sternum having the same effect. As a matter of fact, a few years ago, in the Stanley Cup playoffs, Chris Pronger (a big defenseman) got hit in the chest with a slapshot and he was out on his feet. It was pretty scary to see that happen to an athlete wearing protective gear. He was OK a bit later but was still taken to the hospital to make sure.

There is a nerve point underneath the jaw (by the jugular). gripping the side of the neck with 4 fingers whilst simultanously pushing upwards with your thumb on the other side of the neck can cause 3 things to happen: restrict air flow resulting in panic, restrict blood flow to the brain resulting in dizziness (ball of the thumb constricting the jugular), and finally pain caused by sharply pressing the nerve point.

Again, I am not arguing the value of pressure points, or chokes. I know they work. This, however is not the same as what certain posters here are saying they can do or know about.

I've seen the theory of 'death attacks' and there is two that I know of.

1) Simultaniously striking two major nerve centres above and below the heart causing a 'short circuit' and a heart attack.

2) The base of the sternum is a nest of nerves which, if struck right, can break resulting in a rather painful death.

These are like the theories that I wish to have a true person in the know, like a cardiologist or neurosurgeon take a look at in regards to feasability.

The ESP aspect you've been talking about is closer to instinct combat more than anything else and can be used by those that have trained to a point they don't have to think about what they are doing anymore.

Rich Heckler wrote a book (ISBN: 1556431163) on his experience in trying to teach awareness techniques learned in Aikido to a study group of SF soldiers. A good book and a quick read.

 

[Daminc]

This, however is not the same as what certain posters here are saying they can do or know about.

No, it's not. My post was primarily directed at Happeh. I thought that if he understood that there are people posting here with a bit of MA knowledge and are capable of making accurate desciptions of techniques then he may consent to believe we know what we're talking about.

These are like the theories that I wish to have a true person in the know, like a cardiologist or neurosurgeon take a look at in regards to feasability.

I found this:

Solar plexus

The solar plexus, also known as the celiac plexus or plexus cœliacus, is an autonomous cluster of nerve cells in the human body behind the stomach and below the diaphragm near the celiac artery in the abdominal cavity. The solar plexus consists of two ganglia, called celiac ganglia, and a nerve network connecting the two ganglia. The solar plexus controls functions of the internal organs as for example adrenal secretion and the contraction in the intestines.

A blow to the stomach, halfway between the navel and the heart may also put pressure on this nerve cluster, creating great pain.

Other similar nerve centres are the cardiac plexus near the heart, or the hypogastric plexus in front of the last lumbar vertebra.

The solar plexus is also considered a energy node according to Hinduism, called the manipura chakra.

I haven't varified any evidence for the double punch death blow though.

Rich Heckler wrote a book (ISBN: 1556431163) on his experience in trying to teach awareness techniques learned in Aikido to a study group of SF soldiers. A good book and a quick read.

I'll have a look for that book, cheers.

btw,who are SF soldiers?

 

[Happeh]

Puh-lease.

I am getting the hint that everything you say is factual. Is this your web site?

http://www.angrypenis.org/

If so, I have a great insight into just what you "know" as being true.

Can you answer a question for me? I am extremely curious as to the motivations of people who would go out in search of information on another in order to ridicule them.

One type of people I know are evil. They do it so that they can hurt me. Another type I know of are people who are angry with me for one reason or the other and are looking for a club to hit me with. Other people realize that they cannot counter me in a verbal discussion, so they try misdirection. They try to distract peoples attention by pointing at something else way over there so people forget the conversation at hand.

I am guessing that you are the "How dare he so authoritatively show that I am wrong" type. You are angry and wishing to gain revenge.

Yes that is my site. I imagine that you and many people here will find it lacking. I also imagine that is because you you are so certain of your superiority that you refuse to believe that there is anything to learn from any type of discussion that does not match the discussion methods taught to you at school. If it is not written up to the standards of a professional report with expert attributions, then it is worthless.

You know. I have had this happen so many times. Some person sneaking around and bringing back "the dirt" on me. I still feel sick when it happens. Not as sick as I did the first time it happened. The impact is slowly reducing. In my mind, I can see no other motivation for this kind of action other than hurt. I don't care that you hurt me. I am disappointed that people are like that.

 

[Happeh]

No, it's not. My post was primarily directed at Happeh. I thought that if he understood that there are people posting here with a bit of MA knowledge and are capable of making accurate desciptions of techniques then he may consent to believe we know what we're talking about.

What I am talking about has nothing to do with Dim Mak points. I am talking about exactly what I say I am talking about.

If you have MA experience makes no difference to me. You say this as if I am a con man who, when faced with reality, will recant. Not a chance. I know exactly what I am talking about. I am right and the both of you are wrong.

Really guys. How do you expect me to treat you if not with a slight bit of contempt? Fred has hunted down my personal site in an attempt to ridicule me. Neither of you is correct in the matter under discussion.

Fred completely ignored my comment about a possible wife. If I was full of baloney, why did I bring that up? An intelligent person would wonder, "If he can bring up the wife example, is there some other examples he can bring up"? Once they got that far, they might thing "If he has all those examples, could there be something to what he is talking about"?

If you would consider for even a small moment what I have said, the most obvious and everyday occurrence in the world should make you consider what I say is reality. What does a person with a dog do when they ask the dog to shake hands? The person makes the shaking hand motion right? Instead of the dog being trained to shake hands, what if the human being is controlling the dog to lift it's leg? Both creatures have 4 limbs. The arm would be equivalent to the dog forelimb. Alternatively, the dog could be sensitive enough to sense the lifting of the humans arm and lift his leg. The human being does not have to consciously think "I am going to control the dogs leg to move it up in a shaking motion".

I just had an epiphany. I know what the problem is. Professional men cannot afford to engage in speculative conversation. The conversation could be used to ridicule them professionally in the way Fred has used my website to ridicule me.

I wonder if that means I can never get a professional person to hear me out? That would be sad. I think they need me more than other people do. What I have to say brings them back from being mechanistic to being more human which is healthier for them. Have you ever read messages over in Biology? I just visited there today. My first impression was the difference in atmosphere. It seemed more relaxed, less rigid, more kindly, less adversarial. IMHO, that is healthier than the rigid atmosphere of the physics or other hard science forums.

 

[FredGarvin]

It's your web site. I was just asking. I felt it gave me insight into who was providing all of this knowledge. If you think I can ridicule you for your web site, then maybe you should think about what it is that you are saying.

If the burden of proof is what you call rigid, then yup. I'm rigid.

I am guessing that you are the "How dare he so authoritatively show that I am wrong" type. You are angry and wishing to gain revenge.

No. I am a person that is wondering how some people can simply tell other people they are wrong and then back that up with "because I said so" type of statements.

My post was primarily directed at Happeh. I thought that if he understood that there are people posting here with a bit of MA knowledge and are capable of making accurate desciptions of techniques then he may consent to believe we know what we're talking about.

Ah. No prob. I misread what you were saying. My bad. BTW, SF = Special Forces.

 

[Daminc]

If you have MA experience makes no difference to me. You say this as if I am a con man who, when faced with reality, will recant. Not a chance. I know exactly what I am talking about. I am right and the both of you are wrong.

How am I wrong?

The women don't know what it is, they just know they feel good when they are around you. Works the other way too. Women doing it to men. The men don't know why, they just love being around that woman.

To sell people things. They come to my store looking. I control them so they buy something expensive.

These sort of things can be explained by the application of pyschology. I've done them myself. Why would you try and 'mystify' it?

If you would consider for even a small moment what I have said, the most obvious and everyday occurrence in the world should make you consider what I say is reality.

Ok, I suspend my disbelief for a moment. Why do you think you're right? Has anything happened that could not be explained by any other conventional method? Are there others who could varify anything you suggest? Would you consider the possibility that you are wrong?