Can Massless Photons Carry Momentum?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of whether massless photons can carry momentum, exploring the implications of mass and energy relationships in physics. Participants engage in technical explanations, clarify concepts, and raise questions about related topics such as energy states and temperature effects on moving masses.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the statement that photons carry momentum, citing the equation P=mv and arguing that if mass (m) is zero, then momentum (P) should also be zero.
  • Others clarify that the relationship P=mv applies only to massive particles at low speeds, and introduce a more general equation, E^2 = p^2 c^2 + m^2 c^4, which accommodates massless particles like photons.
  • There is a discussion about the rest energy of particles and how E=mc^2 is a special case where momentum is zero, leading to the conclusion that the broader equation should be used for massless particles.
  • One participant raises a question about how temperature affects the energy states of two one-kilogram masses traveling at three-quarters the speed of light, one at a very low temperature and the other at a high temperature.
  • Another participant expresses confusion about their own question regarding temperature and energy states, indicating a lack of clarity in their inquiry.
  • A link to the Compton Effect is shared, suggesting a connection to the discussion on photons and momentum.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of masslessness on momentum, with some agreeing on the need for a broader equation while others maintain confusion about specific applications. The discussion on temperature and energy states remains unresolved, with participants unsure about the implications of their questions.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the assumptions made about temperature and energy comparisons, as well as the clarity of certain mathematical relationships. Some participants express uncertainty about their own questions, indicating a need for further exploration of the concepts discussed.

MonstersFromTheId
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Do photons "carry momentum"?

I was just reading this article in the NY Times,..

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/13/s...tml?ex=1175918400&en=d898bf8d246a0844&ei=5070

And THIS sentence just doesn't make ANY sense to me...

"Particles of light, or photons, have no mass, but they carry momentum."

What? P=mv. If m=0, P=0. If something is massless, how in the hell could it possibly carry ANY momentum - at all?
 
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MonstersFromTheId said:
What? P=mv. If m=0, P=0. If something is massless, how in the hell could it possibly carry ANY momentum - at all?
P = mv only applies to massive particles traveling at speeds slow compared to the speed of light. A more general relationship, good for any particle at any speed, is:
[tex]E^2 = p^2 c^2 + m^2 c^4[/tex]

Where E is energy, p is momentum, and c is the speed of light. The massless photon has a momentum equal to: p = E/c.
 
Thank you SO much!

Someone also once told me that E=mc^2 is ALSO a special case where a second term drops out, ie. E=mc^2 + (sumpthin)?

Is that also true?
 
Yes, that comes from the same equation. E = mc^2 is the rest energy of a particle. Thus the momentum is zero and the p^2c^2 term drops out.
 
So the broader aplication would be...

E=mc^2 + pc or E=mc^2 + mvc?
 
MonstersFromTheId said:
So the broader aplication would be...

E=mc^2 + pc or E=mc^2 + mvc?
No. The broader equation is the one I gave above:

[tex]E^2 = p^2 c^2 + m^2 c^4[/tex]

Remember: p doesn't equal mv! And the square root of a sum is not the sum of the square roots! (2 + 2)^2 does not equal 2^2 + 2^2!
 
How would temperature figure into all this?

For example; if you had, say, a one kilogram mass with a temperature of -270C (i.e. *really* cold), traveling at three quarter light speed, and another one kilogram mass, also traveling at three quarter light speed, but at a temperature of 900C, how would you compare the energy states of the two?
 
Monsters
(Smacks head)
Idiot!
Sorry for the Curly from the 3 stooges moment.
"Whoop-whoop-whoop-whoop-whoop!"
Got a cold and I'm a little buzzed on Nyquil and no sleep.
 
MonstersFromTheId said:
How would temperature figure into all this?

For example; if you had, say, a one kilogram mass with a temperature of -270C (i.e. *really* cold), traveling at three quarter light speed, and another one kilogram mass, also traveling at three quarter light speed, but at a temperature of 900C, how would you compare the energy states of the two?
Not sure what you are asking, but a hot object has more energy than a cold one. (By that I mean: Take two identical one kg masses at the same temperature. Now heat one to a higher temperature: its total energy will be greater.)
 
  • #10
"Not sure what you are asking,..."

Honestly, neither am I, and frankly I'm just too "out of it" at the moment to think straight. Time to roll around in bed and pretend to sleep I guess.

;-).

I'll get my thoughts together and ask more cohierent q's after a few Z's.
Thanks SO much for your patience though Doc. 'Preciated, really do.
 

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