Can military naval vessels easily survive any hurricane/typhoon?

[BarnRat]

This question is for any naval military folk out there . . .

Can naval vessels, from the largest aircraft carriers down to the smaller ships, easily survive severe ocean weather like hurricanes and typhoons? If so, do they even change their training schedules due to bad weather?

 

[russ_watters]

Larger ones yes, smaller ones no. All might alter their schedules for most routine missions.

On a more basic level, weather is always a factor in any mission planning.

 

[BarnRat]

Russ, thanks for the reply.

Also, can large oil tankers and container ships easily survive any type of hurricane or typhoon? For both types of ships it would seem that they would be in more danger when fully loaded -- is this true?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I don't think there are any ships that can easily weather a large hurricane. There is always risk. This article might be of interest to you
http://www.forbes.com/sites/gcaptain/2012/10/29/how-do-large-ships-deal-with-massive-hurricanes/

...“When battling a storm at sea, size and mass are your friend. Ships are built of heavy steel and designed to be capable of riding out most storms. ” says Konrad. “ Even the largest ships however, like the 1,302 foot long, 170,974 ton container ship, Emma Maersk, can sink if she is beaten by massive waves for too long a period of time. This is why shipping companies keep a close eye on their ships and the path of all developing storms”...

 

[jim hardy]

This question is for any naval military folk out there . . .

Can naval vessels, from the largest aircraft carriers down to the smaller ships, easily survive severe ocean weather like hurricanes and typhoons? If so, do they even change their training schedules due to bad weather?

From http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq102-4.htm

On 17 December 1944, the ships of Task Force 38, seven fleet and six light carriers, eight battleships, 15 cruisers, and about 50 destroyers were operating about 300 miles east of Luzon in the Philippine Sea. The carriers had just completed three days of heavy raids against Japanese airfields, suppressing enemy aircraft during the American amphibious operations against Mindoro in the Philippines. Although the sea had been becoming rougher all day, the nearby cyclonic disturbance gave relatively little warning of its approach. On 18 December, the small but violent typhoon overtook the Task Force while many of the ships were attempting to refuel. Many of the ships were caught near the center of the storm and buffeted by extreme seas and hurricane force winds. Three destroyers, USS Hull, USS Spence, and USS Monaghan, capsized and went down with practically all hands, while a cruiser, five aircraft carriers, and three destroyers suffered serious damage. Approximately 790 officers and men were lost or killed, with another 80 injured. Fires occurred in three carriers when planes broke loose in their hangars and some 146 planes on various ships were lost or damaged beyond economical repair by fires, impact damage, or by being swept overboard. This storm inflicted more damage on the Navy than any storm since the hurricane at Apia, Samoa in 1889. In the aftermath of this deadly storm, the Pacific Fleet established new weather stations in the Caroline Islands and, as they were secured, Manila, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa. In addition, new weather central offices (for coordinating data) were established at Guam and Leyte.

I think that's an episode in "Victory at Sea", a 1950's documentary that mesmerized my family around our 14 inch B&W tv. It is now in the $5 pile at Walmart.

 

[DiracPool]

Thanks for the reply.

Also, can large oil tankers and container ships easily survive any type of hurricane or typhoon? For both types of ships it would seem that they would be in more danger when fully loaded -- is this true?

This is, of course, an overgeneral question that is unanswerable other than to say "No," Obviously no craft is able to survive ANY incidence without establishing what the parameters of the particular situation it is in. I'm sure each Naval vessel and, in fact, commercial transport vessel, is rated for various weather and other conditions. I'm not sure at this instant where to find those specs but I imagine they are available somewhere.

 

[BarnRat]

I don't think there are any ships that can easily weather a large hurricane. There is always risk. This article might be of interest to you

I think that's an episode in "Victory at Sea", a 1950's documentary that mesmerized my family around our 14 inch B&W tv. It is now in the $5 pile at Walmart.

Ryan and Jim, thanks for the replies. Good info there.

 

[ASKDodge]

Can naval vessels, from the largest aircraft carriers down to the smaller ships, easily survive severe ocean weather like hurricanes and typhoons?

As others have stated, this is a fairly general question. I'm going to make the assumption that you're referring to the the structural integrity of such vessels in severe weather conditions.

The short answer is dependent on the the actual type of vessel you have in mind. The Royal Navy, for example, requires a very high standard of construction for it's vessels. The ships are designed to withstand harsh conditions and operate effectively in such environments. At high readiness states (situations where the ships company ready the platform for combat or poor weather) each ship essentially becomes an air-tight steel box. No ship is unsinkable however, so any storm that is outside of the ships capabilities is likely to do significant damage.

One of the best ways that warships are able to effectively operate in such conditions is the training of the men and women on-board. The Mechanical engineers study ship stability and hydro-dynamics so can calculate the risks of flooding and combat them with effective action when the situation arises.

If so, do they even change their training schedules due to bad weather?

A broken fridge will cause a change to training schedules, so inclement weather would definitely impact the commands decision making in a training situation.

In the end, warships are ships. They are designed as floating platforms for waging war on and from the water. Ships can sink, and so can warships, but the crew training and the quality of construction give them improved odds over most civilian ships.

 

[mheslep]

From http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq102-4.htm

I think that's an episode in "Victory at Sea", a 1950's documentary that mesmerized my family around our 14 inch B&W tv. It is now in the $5 pile at Walmart.

Yep, my first thought - "Halsey's Typhoon". I think Wouk's novel/film The Caine Mutiny is notionally set in that typhoon, where Captain Queeg is relieved by his executive officer after Queeg bungles the handling of the ship in the storm.

 

[AlephZero]

Bad weather doesn't necessarily mean isolated storms. I know a retired navy officer who has a few stories about patrols around the Falkland Islands in the South Atlantic. Several times they were just stooging around for weeks at a time, waiting till the wind speed dropped to Force 10 (say 60 mph) so they could actually choose what direction THEY wanted to go, rather than the weather choosing for them.

They couldn't do anything of military significance in that weather, so having checked the warship was designed to heel over to 45 degrees without capsizing, they used to pass the time having steering competitions, to see who could maintain a steady 40 degrees for longest.

 

[ImaLooser]

Yep, my first thought - "Halsey's Typhoon". I think Wouk's novel/film The Caine Mutiny is notionally set in that typhoon, where Captain Queeg is relieved by his executive officer after Queeg bungles the handling of the ship in the storm.

It would be scary as hell to go through a typhoon in a tin can [destroyer].

 

[nsaspook]

Even if the ship can take it the people can't. While in the Navy we had a main engine failure while off the coast of SE Asia during a typhoon. For two days we strapped ourselves in with ropes on beds and had to crawl instead of walking to move around eating only crackers because no food could be cooked. We had only the power to keep the ship pointed into the waves but even so we rolled so far over the catwalks were touching the water.

We came very close to sinking. Nothing on the surface 'easily survives' a hurricane/typhoon.

 

[MBGNET]

Navy and merchant ships not built to stand up to all seas

During both Naval and Merchant Marine exercises in the South Pacific I and my brothers have come to the conclusion that it largley depends on the quality of the crew, and sometimes on tankers what your cargo status is. Sometimes after offloading oil in say Japan and returning to the South China sea, the ship was riding at half draft as the tanks were not used for ballasting the load and keeping the ship at optimum load carrying draft, around 38ft. She was riding high and light in increasingly intemperate seas, there for unstable and pitching past maximum list angle of 30 degrees. As the Seas rose in height, more and more of the waves were breaking over higher levels of the main house and eventually went down a funnel onto an unprotected Generator shorting out the circuits for both the main and backup generators. This condition was the fault of a complacent officers that did not consider the storm a threat, and remiss in calling of rigging for heavy seas. None of the funnels was facing aft or covered with lashings as is normal for storm running. We were at the mercy of 60ft seas for approximately 6hrs before the Engineers could constuct a solution.

As more and more weapons are loaded on to the superstructure of the modern warships, they become increasingly top heavy, solutions of adding more aluminum to the upper decks is only partially effective. Almost all modern ships are built for speed and not for stability, it was even worse in the WWII days Superstructures on the smaller Destroyers and Destroyer escorts were dangerously top heavy and as was the case in Halsey incident several were lost to capsizing. Some ships are better suited to weather heavy seas, larger ones are engineered to span larger distances over waves, and therefore don't come under the same stresses that can break smaller vessels apart, ergo suspend half vessels weight in mid air as the waves pick up half a ship out of the water as another wave approaches to lift suddenly on the other half of the vessel suspending and flexing the structure to massive stresses both on the up-heaving and heart rending bow crashing into the next assailant. I have seen the metal along the length of a ship flex as much as 3-4ft from the aft end of the ship and marveled as she held together.. scary stuff!

Tankers are more stable and structurally capable when full, not when the load is uneven or partially full, the hull bears more weight when half loaded. Waves would in heavy seas break over the ship rather than lift the empty weight out of the water. EOF

I have no doubt that larger surface hugging vessels are better capable of handling these stresses. And pray somebody takes notice of the hazards of surprise circumstances that risk the lives of so many quality seamen who are not privy to such knowledge. Serious weather requires people of responsibility take appropriate measures in a timely manner and educate others as is the custom of international brotherhood of seafarers.. knowledge can save lives.

eor ... end of rant ... answer is no, mother nature can snuff anything

 

[OmCheeto]

I rode the Saratoga through some heavy swells(~50ft) in the Atlantic off the coast of Florida back in 1978. It was fun. The waves would crash into the side of the ship and shoot up another 100 feet. It was quite impressive from the cat walk around the flight deck.

The extraordinary rogue waves the hit the ship broadside were the most impressive. Here's a mini-me version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UaM2RIvFTs​

 

[Lee Beffort]

I was in the South china Sea aboard three Aircraft Carriers, The USS Bennington CVA20, the USS Midway, CVA41, and the USS Coral Sea CVA 43, and went through several typhoons. This was pre-Vietnam. On the USS Bennington after experiencing the typhoon, the ship titled to a 45 degree angle. I thought we were done for. Later, maybe due to the Typhoon, the elevator fell off, taking a plane and the crew with it. Once, don't remember which carrier, we ended in the 'Eye" of the Typhoon. The water was smooth as glass. Beautiful, but I knew we had to go back into the storm to get out of the eye. I saw 50=60 foot waves crashing over the bow of the ship. I stepped out onto a small catwalk and looking up and seeing those massive waves crashing on the ship, I stepped back in. Didn't want to be washed overboard.

 

[nsaspook]

I spent some time on CVA 43 the "Ageless Warrior" in 1980 at Gonzo Station. She was a rust bucket then but still on duty. It's a shame that Richard Dunleavy was black marked later by Tail Hook as he was one hell of a Capt.

The surface of the ocean near Iran and the gulf was as smooth as glass, we would watch flying fish skip the surface for yards and yards on the ships wake.

 

[Astronuc]

Russ, thanks for the reply.

Also, can large oil tankers and container ships easily survive any type of hurricane or typhoon? For both types of ships it would seem that they would be in more danger when fully loaded -- is this true?

Lost at sea: Ship with 33 people missing in Hurricane Joaquin
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/hurricane-joaquin/

One lifeboat, one life ring, and one body was found. El Faro was a container ship heading to the Bahamas from the US. It ran right into Hurricane Joaquin, and apparently went down.

 

[HoubaHouba]

I don't think there are any ships that can easily weather a large hurricane. There is always risk. This article might be of interest to you
http://www.forbes.com/sites/gcaptain/2012/10/29/how-do-large-ships-deal-with-massive-hurricanes/

Submarine can easily survive any hurricane/typhoon.

 

[edward]

The El Faro was a large ship, but it was not a true container ship.

The 40-year-old ship wasn’t a conventional container ship, but a “roll-on/roll-off” cargo vessel designed to carry trucks and other vehicles that are driven on and off the ship. When the El Faro departed Jacksonville, Florida, last Tuesday bound for Puerto Rico, it was carrying 294 cars, trucks and trailers below deck, as well as 391 containers on its top deck.

http://www.pressherald.com/2015/10/...rgo-added-to-risk-of-operating-in-rough-seas/

 

[Student100]

Submarine can easily survive any hurricane/typhoon.

Or not, it depends on the operating depth of that submarine and the depth of the water. Any storm that can produce large sea states will also cause changes in ocean currents and turbulence underneath the surface. This can cause destructive vibrations in submarines, kick up silt or perhaps large objects that can damage propulsion systems/the hull, affect the ability to navigate via sonar, and hosts of other issues.

No one, not even the US Navy, is purposely navigating into large storms.

 

[nsaspook]

No one, not even the US Navy, is purposely navigating into large storms.

We got stuck in one between the Philippines and Hong Kong. One of the ships had a steering problem and was almost sunk so we had to keep her in sight in case of a rescue. We were chased out of Subic Bay by Super Typhoon Irma. Three days of hell on the high seas evading that Typhoon.

 

[Student100]

We go stuck in one between the Philippines and Hong Kong. One of the ships had a steering problem and was almost sunk so we had to keep her in sight in case of a rescue. We were chased out of Subic Bay by Super Typhoon Irma. Three days of hell on the high seas evading that Typhoon.

Transits to Hong Kong always seem fraught with high sea states. I was cranking on a ship during my first trip up to HK and had my tooth broken by a plate while working the deep sink, it had come flying off the shelf in the rough seas. Then came the horrors of naval dentistry.

 

[DiracPool]

Personally, I recommend duck diving..

 

[nsaspook]

Carrier 'duck dive'

 

[HoubaHouba]

Or not, it depends on the operating depth of that submarine and the depth of the water. Any storm that can produce large sea states will also cause changes in ocean currents and turbulence underneath the surface. This can cause destructive vibrations in submarines, kick up silt or perhaps large objects that can damage propulsion systems/the hull, affect the ability to navigate via sonar, and hosts of other issues.

No one, not even the US Navy, is purposely navigating into large storms.

You are missing the point. The point is "survival". Can a military naval vessel, a submarine easily survive any hurricane/typhoon?

So far, your reply only talk about some vibration destruction, some damages to the submarine. You have not shown the submarine would be destroyed. Beside, it is a loaded statement: some vibration destruction... You are talking about a submarine designed to withstand depth-charge and tremendous deep ocean pressure here.

I only use my common sense: A submarine does not have problems as a ship in a stormy weather: Capsize or taking in too much water. Further more, a submarine not only has a much stronger hull, it can escape to the much calmer water under the ocean. A ship cannot, and must bear the ocean furry on the surface.

Let's talk about your common sense. You think that the rock/boulder would be hurled at the submarine in the turbulence water. You are wrong. In water, the submarine is not tied down to anything. It will move along with any rock. You are thinking of flying objects hitting your house during a strong wind. But that's because your house is tied down to the ground.

So, when two objects moving along in the water, there is minimal impact between them. Have you watched any John Wayne's cowboy movie? In order for the guy to administer a punch, he grabs the opponent's shirt to tie the person down then punches. lol...

A submarine is designed for stealth and normally operate in deep water to hide from the enemy. If it is not, then it is going into port for maintenance. So, I don't see how a submarine would be caught in a shallow water under a hurricane/typhoon.

 

[256bits]

Roque waves, once the stuff of legend, are quite likely responsible for disasters at sea.

Storms at sea are not all that difficult to handle for many vessels. It is the possible systems malfunction, cargo loads shifts, loss of power that makes being at sea in stormy weather all that more dangerous.

Here the Ocean Ranger oil platform, it is suspected of being capsized after being hit by a large wave.

 

[DiracPool]

Carrier 'duck dive'

I like those "old-school" windshield wipers. Lol. For 25 large (as in billion), I'd hope that they could budget a few bottles of Rain-X. Jeez...

 

[nsaspook]

The old ships had a hand-crank for the wipers if power failed. You need a 'LOT' of spring tension to remove the spray from an ocean wave on the window if it's white capping over the flight deck. Rain-X is great but who will apply it for you on the Island in a heavy sea state?

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/norfolknavyflagship.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/0/23/023704a4-822d-11e0-9847-001cc4c03286/4dd537b8ad135.image.jpg

 

[Astronuc]

Feds: Wreckage believed to be El Faro cargo ship located
http://news.yahoo.com/feds-wreckage-believed-el-faro-cargo-ship-located-013718664.html

WASHINGTON (AP) — Searchers using high-tech sonars have discovered the deep-water wreckage of a vessel believed to be the cargo ship El Faro, which went missing Oct. 1 with 33 crewmembers during Hurricane Joaquin, the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board said late Saturday.

The federal agency said the wreckage is some 15,000 feet (4,572 meters) below the water's surface and its identity still must be confirmed by sending down a remotely operated deep ocean vehicle.
. . . .
NTSB investigators have said Davidson intended to pass 65 miles (105 kilometers) from the center of the storm. Independent maritime experts have said that such a decision would be risky.

 

[mheslep]

Feds: Wreckage believed to be El Faro cargo ship located
http://news.yahoo.com/feds-wreckage-believed-el-faro-cargo-ship-located-013718664.html

That the ship foundered in a hurricane is not that surprising. That all hands were lost given modern survival craft in warm waters with not a single emergency radio communication is.