Can the Ricci Tensor's Trace be Applied to Tensors?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the application of traces to tensors, specifically examining the relationship between the Ricci tensor and the Riemann tensor. Participants explore concepts of tensor contraction, the conditions under which traces can be applied, and the implications for tensors of different ranks.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether traces can be applied to tensors and suggests that the trace of the Riemann tensor might be equivalent to the Ricci tensor.
  • Another participant clarifies that what is being referred to is tensor contraction, which sums elements similar to a matrix trace and reduces the rank of the tensor.
  • A participant inquires if all tensors of rank greater than or equal to 2 can be represented as n x n matrices, indicating uncertainty about the relationship between tensor rank and matrix representation.
  • Another participant explains that even rank tensors can be contracted to n x n matrices, while odd rank tensors will contract to other odd rank tensors or vectors.
  • One participant notes that contraction can only be performed with mixed tensors, providing details on how the Ricci tensor is derived from the Riemann tensor.
  • A later reply discusses the conditions for contracting the Ricci tensor and introduces the concept of scalar curvature.
  • Another participant raises a question about the traceless nature of the Weyl tensor, initially misstating the indexing but later correcting it to clarify their inquiry.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding tensor contraction and the application of traces, with some points clarified while others remain contested or uncertain. There is no consensus on the broader implications of these concepts.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on the definitions of tensor ranks and the specific conditions required for contraction, which are not fully resolved in the discussion.

waht
Messages
1,499
Reaction score
4
Just wondering if Traces can be applied to tensors.

If the Ricci tensor is Rii then is sums over diagonal elements.

So technically, can you say the trace of the Riemann tensor is the Ricci tensor?
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
well what you are referring to is Tensor Contraction. A tensor contraction sums much like the trace of a matrix and gets rid of two indicies. Think of a matrix being a rank 2 tensor being contracted to a rank 0 (scalar) tensor. That is what a trace is, a specific form of a tensor contraction (if the matrix is made of tensor elements).
Here is the mathworld site:
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/TensorContraction.html
So in that case the Ricci tensor is contracted from the Riemann Tensor.
 
Thanks a lot,

For a trace, the matrix has to be n x n, right. So, can all tensors with a rank greater or equal to 2 be written as n x n matrices?

Sorry I'm asking a silly question, I didn't work with tensors in long time.
 
Last edited:
not exactly. Any tensor with an even rank can be contracted down to a nxn matrix (effectivly a rank 2 tensor), but odd rank tensors will be contracted to other odd rank tensors and ultimately a vector (n x 1 matrix).
Picture a rank 3 tensor as a n x n x n 'cubic matrix'. A contraction would basically take the trace of each level of this 'cubic matrix' and make a vector out of it.
I don't think there is a way to get rid of a single rank in the way of contraction. But all even rank tensors could be contracted (multiple times) down to a n x n matrix.
 
Thanks, that makes a lot more sense now.
 
One thing I should add:
The contraction can not be done with covariant or contravariant tensors , but only with mixed tensors. So, the Ricci tensor R_{ij}=R^k_{k,ij} is the contraction of Riemann's tensor R^l_{k,ij} (you can not contract R_{lk,ij}, one index should be rised).
Further, if you want to contract the Ricci tensor R_{ij}, you need first to rise the index 'i' and then contract g^{ki}R_{ij} by k=j. The result will be the scalar curvature R.
 
Last edited:
gvk said:
One thing I should add:
The contraction can not be done with covariant or contravariant tensors , but only with mixed tensors. So, the Ricci tensor R_{ij}=R^k_{k,ij} is the contraction of Riemann's tensor R^l_{k,ij} (you can not contract R_{lk,ij}, one index should be rised).
Further, if you want to contract the Ricci tensor R_{ij}, you need first to rise the index 'i' and then contract g^{ki}R_{ij} by k=j. The result will be the scalar curvature R.


Weyl tensor C_{abcd} is traceless in the sense g^{ab} g^{cd} C_{abcd} = 0? Am I right?
 
Omega137 said:
Weyl tensor C_{abcd} is traceless in the sense g^{ab} g^{cd} C_{abcd} = 0? Am I right?

Sorry; I've made a mistake in the indexing...

I should have said

C_{abcd} is traceless in the sense g^{ac} C_{abcd} = 0 or eqvivalently C^a_{bad} = 0 for arbitrary b , d

Sorry for the mistake...
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
4K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
6K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
6K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
9K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
1K