Can This Proof Verify the Existence of Integers m and n for Any Real Number x?

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around proving the existence of integers m and n for any real number x, specifically that there exist integers m and n such that m < x < n. The problem is situated within the context of real analysis and involves concepts such as upper and lower bounds, as well as properties of sets of real numbers.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore the implications of the assumptions made about the real number x and the nature of the set S. There is discussion about the existence of upper bounds for sets without maximum elements, and the validity of using integers as bounds. Some participants suggest alternative formulations of the assumptions to clarify the problem.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with participants questioning the assumptions made in the original post and exploring different interpretations of the problem. Some guidance has been offered regarding the formulation of the set S and its relationship to the integers, but no consensus has been reached.

Contextual Notes

There are discussions about the nature of inductive sets and their bounds, as well as the implications of using arbitrary subsets of real numbers. The original poster's assumptions and the definitions of upper and lower bounds are under scrutiny.

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1. Question I 3.12 from Apostle's calculus volume 1
If x is an arbitrary real number, prove that there are integers m and n such that m<x<n




2. Theorem I.27:Every nonempty set S that is bounded below has a greatest lower bound; that is, there is a real number such that L= infS



3. Suppose x\inR and belongs to a nonempty set S with no maximum element. It follows that ∃B\inZ\stackrel{+}{} such that B is an upper bound for S. Let n=B, then we have n>x. Similarly, let -S denote the set of negatives of numbers in S. Suppose that -B\in-Z\stackrel{+}{} of -S, then by theorem I.27 -B is a lower bound of -S. Let m=-B. , such that m<x<n.
 
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Physics2341313 said:
Suppose x\inR and belongs to a nonempty set S with no maximum element.
You have stated this as if you're making two assumptions about x. You should only make one: ##x\in\mathbb R##. If you need to use some other statement about x, you need to be able to prove that it follows from your one and only assumption about x.

Physics2341313 said:
It follows that ∃B\inZ\stackrel{+}{} such that B is an upper bound for S.
It doesn't. Consider e.g. x=1 and S the set of integers (which doesn't have a maximum element).
 
I thought an inductive set could have an upper bound but not a greatest upper bound / supremum because for every x in the set x+1 is also in the set?

and to fix my assumption issue could i do something along the lines of- Suppose S is a nonempty set of real numbers and suppose there is a number B such that x\leqB so B could be an upper bound and then go an to show the lower bound as well equating m and n, the integers, as a subset of the real numbers?
 
Physics2341313 said:
I thought an inductive set could have an upper bound but not a greatest upper bound / supremum because for every x in the set x+1 is also in the set?
The set of natural numbers is an inductive set, but it doesn't have an upper bound in ##\mathbb R##. This would contradict the result that you're trying to prove.

Physics2341313 said:
and to fix my assumption issue could i do something along the lines of- Suppose S is a nonempty set of real numbers and suppose there is a number B such that x\leqB so B could be an upper bound and then go an to show the lower bound as well equating m and n, the integers, as a subset of the real numbers?
If you let S be an arbitrary non-empty subset of ##\mathbb R## and let B be an arbitrary real number such that ##x\leq B##, then what set would B be an upper bound of? Certainly not S. S is arbitrary, so we could have ##S=\{B+1\}##. B is an upper bound of {x}, but that's not very useful.

Edit: I'll give you a hint about one way to solve the problem. The set ##S=\{n\in\mathbb Z|n<x\}## is useful.
 
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