Jan Nebec
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Huh...this thread became one big mess and I am even more confused...so is there any general proof that inertial mass doesn't increase with velocity? Asumming only SR.
If you define "inertial mass" to mean "rest mass" then yes, trivially. If you define "inertial mass" to mean "relativistic mass" then no, equally trivially.Jan Nebec said:Huh...this thread became one big mess and I am even more confused...so is there any general proof that inertial mass doesn't increase with velocity? Asumming only SR.
If you want to use the Newtonian concept of inertia and of force being the time derivative of momentum at the same time as you have an equality and not just a very good approximation I would say so, yes.atyy said:Is it necessary to apply the qualifcation "in its rest frame" to "inertia" in the above statement?
Jan Nebec said:Huh...this thread became one big mess and I am even more confused...so is there any general proof that inertial mass doesn't increase with velocity? Asumming only SR.
Orodruin said:If you want to use the Newtonian concept of inertia and of force being the time derivative of momentum at the same time as you have an equality and not just a very good approximation I would say so, yes.
No. I do not see how you can come to that conclusion based on what I have said.atyy said:So is that some form of "relativistic mass"?
Orodruin said:If you want to use the Newtonian concept of inertia and of force being the time derivative of momentum at the same time as you have an equality and not just a very good approximation I would say so, yes.
atyy said:So is that some form of "relativistic mass"?
SiennaTheGr8 said:\vec f = \gamma^3(\vec v \cdot \vec a) m \vec v + \gamma m \vec a.
Orodruin said:No. I do not see how you can come to that conclusion based on what I have said.
[edit: corrections in line below]atyy said:Is there an expression for the inertia of an object that is not in its rest frame?
To add to what PAllen said, I was discussing the Newtonian limit and how you conclude that the rest energy is the same thing as the Newtonian inertial mass. In that setting there is no reason to look at anything but ##v \to 0##.atyy said:Is there an expression for the inertia of an object that is not in its rest frame?
Orodruin said:To add to what PAllen said, I was discussing the Newtonian limit and how you conclude that the rest energy is the same thing as the Newtonian inertial mass. In that setting there is no reason to look at anything but ##v \to 0##.
The point is I am not talking about the rest energy or rest mass (on one side of the equation). Those are relativistic concepts. I am talking about the equivalence of rest energy on the left-hand side to the notion of Newtonian inertia on the right-hand side. This is a non-trivial result that is often haphazardly glossed over by introducing the invariant mass as the square of the 4-momentum and then just assuming there is an equivalence. It is the reason we call the rest energy a ”mass” in the first place.atyy said:So are you considering that v is not zero before taking the limit?
Just to clarify, I don't understand why "in its rest frame" had to be added as a qualification. If one is talking about either the rest energy or the rest mass, then that is a frame-independent invariant.
Orodruin said:The point is I am not talking about the rest energy or rest mass (on one side of the equation). Those are relativistic concepts. I am talking about the equivalence of rest energy on the left-hand side to the notion of Newtonian inertia on the right-hand side. This is a non-trivial result that is often haphazardly glossed over by introducing the invariant mass as the square of the 4-momentum and then just assuming there is an equivalence. It is the reason we call the rest energy a ”mass” in the first place.
In any frame other than the rest frame, the Newtonian concept of inertia is incompatible with the relativistic relations at some level.
No, it is a derivation of the mass-energy equivalence that tells you that, in the Newtonian limit, what we know as inertia from classical mechanics corresponds to the rest energy. This is a deep result. In classical mechanics there is no a priori link between Newtonian inertia and energy, but in relativity there is. This is what allows you to extract part of the mass of a system and convert it to electric energy.atyy said:Ok, got it. So there is no relativistic notion of inertia in your conception.
I gave you a counter example in post #50, where the "inertial mass" doesn't increase with velocity.Jan Nebec said:...so is there any general proof that inertial mass doesn't increase with velocity?
Well, there are many writings about these issues in popular-science websites and other non-peer-reviewed sources that are not up to date or even incorrect.DrStupid said:In another thread I demonstrated that relativistic mass is the same quantity as the mass as used in non-relativistic physics:
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/relativistic-mass-still-a-no-no.892981/page-2#post-5620010
And relativistic mass is not mass in the modern sense of the word.
That's not gravitational mass but mass. The source of gravity in GR is the stress-energy-tensor. The fact, that this tensor may depend on mass only in special cases desn't turn mass into geravitational mass.
vanhees71 said:Again: To get the correct relation between Newtonian and special-relativistic mechanics one must not (I emphasize one must not!) use relativistic mass. The reason is simple: In Newtonian physics mass is frame independent, i.e., a scalar under Galileo transformations.
Because mass, as used in classical mechanics, does not work the same way in relativity. In classical mechanics, mass is used in many different relations. Depending on which relation you are looking at, you will get different "correct relations".DrStupid said:But why is that a reason not to use it to get the correct relation between Newtonian and special-relativistic mechanics?
Orodruin said:Because mass, as used in classical mechanics, does not work the same way in relativity. In classical mechanics, mass is used in many different relations. Depending on which relation you are looking at, you will get different "correct relations".
This is completely irrelevant. You are not trying to check classical mechanics for internal consistency, you are trying to generalise the concept of mass in classical mechanics to relativity.DrStupid said:Do you have examples for such relations which are not based on Galilean transformation.
It seems to me that your whole argument rests on an assumption you add to Newton's definitions which I think is not in the spirit of Newon's writing. The assumption you add is that Newton's definition of momentum is also the definition of mass, and you ignore Newton's actual definition of mass. I claim the best correspondence between Newtonian and SR mechanics is achieved by formalizing and amending Newton's actual definition of mass, preserving its crucial properties - frame inedpendence, change only via flow of something, and resistance to change of motion. Definition of momentum and kinetic energy then get amended such that they approach the Newtonian definitions for slow speeds. Definition of force is preserved exactly. You insist yours is the only valid correspondence, while I claim it is a possible correspondence, but not the most faithful one.DrStupid said:I can't follow your argumentation. Yes, mass as used in classical mechanics is frame-independent under Galilean transformation but frame-dependent under Lorentz transformation. But why is that a reason not to use it to get the correct relation between Newtonian and special-relativistic mechanics? I would even say that getting a relation between Newtonian and SR mechanics is today the only remaining reason to use this property. Within classical mechanics it is always equal to mass and within special relativity it not efficient due to its frame-dependence but it allows a smooth transtition between classical and SR mechanics.
Orodruin said:This is completely irrelevant. You are not trying to check classical mechanics for internal consistency, you are trying to generalise the concept of mass in classical mechanics to relativity.
PAllen said:The assumption you add is that Newton's definition of momentum is also the definition of mass, and you ignore Newton's actual definition of mass.
PAllen said:I claim the best correspondence between Newtonian and SR mechanics is achieved by formalizing and amending Newton's actual definition of mass, preserving its crucial properties - frame inedpendence, change only via flow of something, and resistance to change of motion.
PAllen said:Definition of momentum and kinetic energy then get amended such that they approach the Newtonian definitions for slow speeds.
PAllen said:You insist yours is the only valid correspondence, while I claim it is a possible correspondence, but not the most faithful one.
You obviously cannot talk about things derived from Galilean transformations to discuss the generalisation to SR since SR instead have Lorentz transformations. You get things such as the inertia in different directions being different, as discussed in this thread. You simply cannot replace m with relativistic mass in F=ma as you seemingly want to do (that would qualify as a correct relation in classical mechanics).DrStupid said:I didn’t ask you for internal consistencies in classical mechanics but for an example for relations that result in different "correct relations". As that was your objection you should be more interested in supporting it than me.
This in my opinion shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how SR works and how it corresponds to the Newtonian limit. The only reason you need to ”amend” anything is your insistence on using 3-vectors rather than 4-vectors, which is the natural thing to use in SR.DrStupid said:And that’s the problem. By forcing the mass as used in classical mechanics to remain frame-independent in SR, everything where mass is involved doesn’t work anymore and needs to be amended. How is that a better correspondence than leaving as many definitions unchanged as possible?
DrStupid said:And that’s the problem. By forcing the mass as used in classical mechanics to remain frame-independent in SR, everything where mass is involved doesn’t work anymore and needs to be amended. How is that a better correspondence than leaving as many definitions unchanged as possible?
Orodruin said:You obviously cannot talk about things derived from Galilean transformations to discuss the generalisation to SR since SR instead have Lorentz transformations.
Orodruin said:You simply cannot replace m with relativistic mass in F=ma as you seemingly want to do (that would qualify as a correct relation in classical mechanics).
Orodruin said:This in my opinion shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how SR works and how it corresponds to the Newtonian limit. The only reason you need to ”amend” anything is your insistence on using 3-vectors rather than 4-vectors, which is the natural thing to use in SR.
stevendaryl said:So Newtonian physics is essentially 3-dimensional, rather than 4-dimensional, although the 4th components are necessary in order for velocity, momentum, and force to be vectors under coordinate changes involving time.