I Can we deal with relativistic mass once and for all?

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The discussion centers on the confusion surrounding the concept of relativistic mass in special relativity (SR). Participants highlight that while relativistic mass can indicate how mass appears to an observer based on velocity, it is often deemed unnecessary and confusing, leading many physicists to prefer using rest mass. The distinction between relativistic mass and rest mass is emphasized, with the former being dependent on the object's speed and frame of reference. Additionally, it is noted that relativistic mass cannot be used to calculate gravitational attraction, further complicating its utility. Ultimately, the consensus leans towards avoiding the term "relativistic mass" to prevent misunderstandings in physics.
  • #91
Huh...this thread became one big mess and I am even more confused...so is there any general proof that inertial mass doesn't increase with velocity? Asumming only SR.
 
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  • #92
Jan Nebec said:
Huh...this thread became one big mess and I am even more confused...so is there any general proof that inertial mass doesn't increase with velocity? Asumming only SR.
If you define "inertial mass" to mean "rest mass" then yes, trivially. If you define "inertial mass" to mean "relativistic mass" then no, equally trivially.

Rest mass is the better concept to use, at least in part because that's what (very nearly) everybody uses. I personally see relativistic mass as an attempt to make relativistic equations look more like Newtonian ones, which seems completely backwards to me. Relativity is not just a correction to Newton - and trying to hide the differences seems wrong-headed to me. And part of why this is causing you trouble is that you're doing the same thing - you are trying to wedge a Newtonian concept of "resistance to acceleration" into a relativistic framework where it isn't a good fit.
 
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  • #93
atyy said:
Is it necessary to apply the qualifcation "in its rest frame" to "inertia" in the above statement?
If you want to use the Newtonian concept of inertia and of force being the time derivative of momentum at the same time as you have an equality and not just a very good approximation I would say so, yes.
 
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  • #94
I would add the comment, though it might be already mentioned in the thread, that in any inertial frame of reference energy and momentum of the system satisfy

E^2-P^2c^2=E'^2-P'^2c^2=E"^2-P"^2c^2=...=Constant

Square root of this positive constant is worth named as rest energy or (rest) mass when divided by c^2.

Opposite to OP's idea, we may do not use the word (rest) mass at all replacing it by rest energy. Thus relativistic mass in any frame of reference simply means energy in that frame divided by c^2. We can save the word mass.
 
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  • #95
Jan Nebec said:
Huh...this thread became one big mess and I am even more confused...so is there any general proof that inertial mass doesn't increase with velocity? Asumming only SR.

There is more than one definition of the term "inertia" or "mass". All of them are correct.

1) If you define "mass" as the thing in Newton's second law "F=dp/dt", then you can use the relativistic mass to get the correct relativistic law for the 3-force. http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/I_15.html

2) If you define "mass" as the thing in Newton's second law "F=ma", then you can use the longitudinal and transverse masses to get the correct relativistic law for the 3-force. https://www.amazon.com/dp/0198567324/?tag=pfamazon01-20 (Eq 6.51)

3) If you define "mass" as the thing in Newton's second law "F=ma", then you can use the invariant mass (also known as the rest mass) to get the correct relativistic law for the 4-force. https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/physics/8-033-relativity-fall-2006/readings/dynamics.pdf
 
  • #96
Orodruin said:
If you want to use the Newtonian concept of inertia and of force being the time derivative of momentum at the same time as you have an equality and not just a very good approximation I would say so, yes.

So is that some form of "relativistic mass"?
 
  • #97
atyy said:
So is that some form of "relativistic mass"?
No. I do not see how you can come to that conclusion based on what I have said.
 
  • #98
Orodruin said:
If you want to use the Newtonian concept of inertia and of force being the time derivative of momentum at the same time as you have an equality and not just a very good approximation I would say so, yes.

atyy said:
So is that some form of "relativistic mass"?

No, he's saying that the relativistic relationship between 3-force and 3-acceleration "reduces" to the Newtonian relation only in the rest frame. In general (for constant ##m##), we have:

##\vec f = \gamma^3(\vec v \cdot \vec a) m \vec v + \gamma m \vec a##.

Only in the rest frame (where ##v=0## and ##\gamma=1##) does this reduce to:

##\vec f = m \vec a##.

In this special frame, and in this special frame only, we can unambiguously point to ##m## [##=E_0 / c^2##] as the "measure of inertia."
 
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  • #99
In Newtonian mechanics momentum is expressed

\mathbf{P}=m\mathbf{v}

Einstein find the correction

\mathbf{P}=m\frac{1}{1-\sqrt\frac{v^2}{c^2}}\mathbf{v}

There are two ways of interpretation

\mathbf{P}=(m\frac{1}{1-\sqrt\frac{v^2}{c^2}})\mathbf{v}=m(\mathbf{v})\mathbf{v}
rerativistic mass.

\mathbf{P}=m(\frac{1}{1-\sqrt\frac{v^2}{c^2}}\mathbf{v})=m\ c\mathbf{u(v)}
four-velocity, the spatial components of.

The latter is simple because u is the only function of v.

SiennaTheGr8 said:
\vec f = \gamma^3(\vec v \cdot \vec a) m \vec v + \gamma m \vec a.

well shows bothersome of the former interpretation.
 
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  • #100
Orodruin said:
No. I do not see how you can come to that conclusion based on what I have said.

Is there an expression for the inertia of an object that is not in its rest frame?
 
  • #101
atyy said:
Is there an expression for the inertia of an object that is not in its rest frame?
[edit: corrections in line below]
Depends how you are willing to define inertia. If you take momentum to be mass * celerity, and force as time derivative of momentum, then for the case of no flows of matter or energy into/out of the body, you have force = mass * (rate of change of celerity). Note that for slow speeds, celerity goes to velocity, and change of celerity goes to acceleration. If you accept that these things are the relativistic generalizations for velocity and acceleration, then it makes perfect sense to consider invariant mass the inertia in all cases. Invariant mass is simply resistance to change of celerity.

Note also that magnitude of rate of change of celerity equals proper acceleration of the body [when acceleration and velocity are in the same direction], further justifying this interpretation. Gedanken experiment : attach accelerometer to body, apply 3-force, in any frame [in the direction of velocity], and the ratio is invariant mass = inertia.
 
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  • #102
atyy said:
Is there an expression for the inertia of an object that is not in its rest frame?
To add to what PAllen said, I was discussing the Newtonian limit and how you conclude that the rest energy is the same thing as the Newtonian inertial mass. In that setting there is no reason to look at anything but ##v \to 0##.
 
  • #103
Orodruin said:
To add to what PAllen said, I was discussing the Newtonian limit and how you conclude that the rest energy is the same thing as the Newtonian inertial mass. In that setting there is no reason to look at anything but ##v \to 0##.

So are you considering that v is not zero before taking the limit?

Just to clarify, I don't understand why "in its rest frame" had to be added as a qualification. If one is talking about either the rest energy or the rest mass, then that is a frame-independent invariant.
 
  • #104
atyy said:
So are you considering that v is not zero before taking the limit?

Just to clarify, I don't understand why "in its rest frame" had to be added as a qualification. If one is talking about either the rest energy or the rest mass, then that is a frame-independent invariant.
The point is I am not talking about the rest energy or rest mass (on one side of the equation). Those are relativistic concepts. I am talking about the equivalence of rest energy on the left-hand side to the notion of Newtonian inertia on the right-hand side. This is a non-trivial result that is often haphazardly glossed over by introducing the invariant mass as the square of the 4-momentum and then just assuming there is an equivalence. It is the reason we call the rest energy a ”mass” in the first place.

In any frame other than the rest frame, the Newtonian concept of inertia is incompatible with the relativistic relations at some level.
 
  • #105
Orodruin said:
The point is I am not talking about the rest energy or rest mass (on one side of the equation). Those are relativistic concepts. I am talking about the equivalence of rest energy on the left-hand side to the notion of Newtonian inertia on the right-hand side. This is a non-trivial result that is often haphazardly glossed over by introducing the invariant mass as the square of the 4-momentum and then just assuming there is an equivalence. It is the reason we call the rest energy a ”mass” in the first place.

In any frame other than the rest frame, the Newtonian concept of inertia is incompatible with the relativistic relations at some level.

Ok, got it. So there is no relativistic notion of inertia in your conception.
 
  • #106
atyy said:
Ok, got it. So there is no relativistic notion of inertia in your conception.
No, it is a derivation of the mass-energy equivalence that tells you that, in the Newtonian limit, what we know as inertia from classical mechanics corresponds to the rest energy. This is a deep result. In classical mechanics there is no a priori link between Newtonian inertia and energy, but in relativity there is. This is what allows you to extract part of the mass of a system and convert it to electric energy.
 
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  • #107
Jan Nebec said:
...so is there any general proof that inertial mass doesn't increase with velocity?
I gave you a counter example in post #50, where the "inertial mass" doesn't increase with velocity.
 
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  • #108
DrStupid said:
In another thread I demonstrated that relativistic mass is the same quantity as the mass as used in non-relativistic physics:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/relativistic-mass-still-a-no-no.892981/page-2#post-5620010

And relativistic mass is not mass in the modern sense of the word.
That's not gravitational mass but mass. The source of gravity in GR is the stress-energy-tensor. The fact, that this tensor may depend on mass only in special cases desn't turn mass into geravitational mass.
Well, there are many writings about these issues in popular-science websites and other non-peer-reviewed sources that are not up to date or even incorrect.

Again: To get the correct relation between Newtonian and special-relativistic mechanics one must not (I emphasize one must not!) use relativistic mass. The reason is simple: In Newtonian physics mass is frame independent, i.e., a scalar under Galileo transformations. If you use relativistic mass, the Newtonian limit, which you get by expanding in powers of ##v/c##, and there you see that the various relativistic masses depend on the speed of the particle at order ##\mathcal{O}(v^2/c^2)##, which is the same order you have to take for kinetic energy to get the correct non-relativistic limit.

The correct way to guess a relativistic equation of motion from a given Newtonian one (you cannot strictly derive it, because SR mechanics is more general than Newtonian mechanics), you have to go to an instantaneous inertial restframe of the particle, where Newtonian mechanics is supposed to hold as an approximation, and then write down the Newtonian equation of motion in terms of covariant quantities. Then you have a good guess for an SR-mechanics equation of motion.

For the kinematic quantities it's clear that to get a covariant expression you have to extend the position vector ##\vec{x}## by the time-poisition four-vector ##(x^{\mu})##. The time in the intantaneous rest frame defines the proper time of the particle. It's given in covariant form by
$$\mathrm{d} \tau=\frac{1}{c} \mathrm{d} s=\frac{1}{c} \sqrt{\mathrm{d} x^{\mu} \mathrm{d} x^{\nu} \eta_{\mu \nu}}.$$
Thus the velocity and acceleration in Newton's Law is most conveniently extended to the corresponding four-velocity and four-acceleration
$$c u^{\mu}=\frac{\mathrm{d} x^{\mu}}{\mathrm{d} \tau}, \quad a^{\mu} = \frac{\mathrm{d}^2 x^{\mu}}{\mathrm{d} \tau^2}.$$
The simplified equation of motion for a point particle in Newtonian physics ##\vec{F}=m \vec{a}## is thus generalized to
$$m a^{\mu}=K^{\mu},$$
where ##m## is the invariant mass of the particle, and it's the same mass as in Newtonian physics, i.e., a scalar (in Newtonian physics under Galileo transformations in SR under Poincare transformations).

Of course also in SR there are only 3 independent degrees of freedom. That's because by definition
$$u_{\mu} u^{\mu}=1 \, \Rightarrow u_{\mu} a^{\mu}=0.$$
The Minkowski four-force ##K^{\mu}## thus must fulfill the constraint
$$K_{\mu} u^{\mu}=0.$$
It implies that both ##a^{\mu}## and ##K^{\mu}## are space-like four-vectors.

Of course also energy and momentum easily are derived in this way. The three-momentum in Newtonian physics is ##\vec{p}=m \vec{v}##. This suggests to extend this definition to the relativistic four-momentum
$$p^{\mu}=m \frac{\mathrm{d} x^{\mu}}{\mathrm{d} \tau}=m c u^{\mu}.$$
That indeed ##p^0=E/c## is an expression for the kinetic energy (up to an additive constant which is physically irrelevant) can be seen by expanding in powers of ##v/c=|\vec{u}|/u^0##. Note that ##\vec{v}=\mathrm{d} \vec{x}/\mathrm{d} t## are not (!) spatial components of a four-vector because one takes a derivative of space components of the four-vector ##x^{\mu}## with respect to the coordinate time ##t##. Of course we can use, for a moment, such non-invariant quantities to get the non-relativistic limit by expanding in powers of ##v/c##. For energy we have
$$E=mc^2 u^0=m c^2 \frac{\mathrm{d} t}{\mathrm{d} \tau}=m c^2 \frac{1}{\mathrm{d} \tau/\mathrm{d} t}=m c^2 \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-\vec{v}^2/c^2}}=m c^2 \gamma.$$
Now expanding in powers of ##v/c##
$$E=m c^2 \left (1+\frac{v^2}{2 c^2} +\mathcal{O}(v^4/c^4) \right )=m c^2 + \frac{m}{2} \vec{v}^2 + \mathcal{O}(v^4/c^4).$$
This shows that in the non-relativistic limit we get, up to the constant rest-energy ##E_0=m c^2## the Newtonian kinetic energy. To include the rest energy in the energy of a relativistic particle is convenient, because as we've just shown, then you get a Lorentz-four vector and make energy and momentum co-variant quantities as they are components of the energy-momentum four-vector
$$(p^{\mu})=\begin{pmatrix} E/c \\ \vec{p} \end{pmatrix}.$$
The mass is, by construction, a scalar obeying the "on-shell condition"
$$p_{\mu} p^{\mu}=m^2 c^2.$$
For a derivation from the point of view of Noether's theorem, see my SR FAQ article:
https://th.physik.uni-frankfurt.de/~hees/pf-faq/srt.pdf
 
  • #109
vanhees71 said:
Again: To get the correct relation between Newtonian and special-relativistic mechanics one must not (I emphasize one must not!) use relativistic mass. The reason is simple: In Newtonian physics mass is frame independent, i.e., a scalar under Galileo transformations.

I can't follow your argumentation. Yes, mass as used in classical mechanics is frame-independent under Galilean transformation but frame-dependent under Lorentz transformation. But why is that a reason not to use it to get the correct relation between Newtonian and special-relativistic mechanics? I would even say that getting a relation between Newtonian and SR mechanics is today the only remaining reason to use this property. Within classical mechanics it is always equal to mass and within special relativity it not efficient due to its frame-dependence but it allows a smooth transtition between classical and SR mechanics.
 
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  • #110
DrStupid said:
But why is that a reason not to use it to get the correct relation between Newtonian and special-relativistic mechanics?
Because mass, as used in classical mechanics, does not work the same way in relativity. In classical mechanics, mass is used in many different relations. Depending on which relation you are looking at, you will get different "correct relations".
 
  • #111
Orodruin said:
Because mass, as used in classical mechanics, does not work the same way in relativity. In classical mechanics, mass is used in many different relations. Depending on which relation you are looking at, you will get different "correct relations".

Do you have examples for such relations which are not based on Galilean transformation.
 
  • #112
DrStupid said:
Do you have examples for such relations which are not based on Galilean transformation.
This is completely irrelevant. You are not trying to check classical mechanics for internal consistency, you are trying to generalise the concept of mass in classical mechanics to relativity.
 
  • #113
DrStupid said:
I can't follow your argumentation. Yes, mass as used in classical mechanics is frame-independent under Galilean transformation but frame-dependent under Lorentz transformation. But why is that a reason not to use it to get the correct relation between Newtonian and special-relativistic mechanics? I would even say that getting a relation between Newtonian and SR mechanics is today the only remaining reason to use this property. Within classical mechanics it is always equal to mass and within special relativity it not efficient due to its frame-dependence but it allows a smooth transtition between classical and SR mechanics.
It seems to me that your whole argument rests on an assumption you add to Newton's definitions which I think is not in the spirit of Newon's writing. The assumption you add is that Newton's definition of momentum is also the definition of mass, and you ignore Newton's actual definition of mass. I claim the best correspondence between Newtonian and SR mechanics is achieved by formalizing and amending Newton's actual definition of mass, preserving its crucial properties - frame inedpendence, change only via flow of something, and resistance to change of motion. Definition of momentum and kinetic energy then get amended such that they approach the Newtonian definitions for slow speeds. Definition of force is preserved exactly. You insist yours is the only valid correspondence, while I claim it is a possible correspondence, but not the most faithful one.
 
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  • #114
Orodruin said:
This is completely irrelevant. You are not trying to check classical mechanics for internal consistency, you are trying to generalise the concept of mass in classical mechanics to relativity.

I didn’t ask you for internal consistencies in classical mechanics but for an example for relations that result in different "correct relations". As that was your objection you should be more interested in supporting it than me.
PAllen said:
The assumption you add is that Newton's definition of momentum is also the definition of mass, and you ignore Newton's actual definition of mass.

No, I just take it for granted that the concept of mass used in the definition of momentum is consistent with this definition.

PAllen said:
I claim the best correspondence between Newtonian and SR mechanics is achieved by formalizing and amending Newton's actual definition of mass, preserving its crucial properties - frame inedpendence, change only via flow of something, and resistance to change of motion.

Which definition are you talking about? Newton’s definition of mass doesn’t say anything about its frame-dependence or -independence.

PAllen said:
Definition of momentum and kinetic energy then get amended such that they approach the Newtonian definitions for slow speeds.

And that’s the problem. By forcing the mass as used in classical mechanics to remain frame-independent in SR, everything where mass is involved doesn’t work anymore and needs to be amended. How is that a better correspondence than leaving as many definitions unchanged as possible?

PAllen said:
You insist yours is the only valid correspondence, while I claim it is a possible correspondence, but not the most faithful one.

I don’t insist more in my opinion than everybody else. Would you blame vanhees71 in the same way for advancing his opinion?
 
  • #115
DrStupid said:
I didn’t ask you for internal consistencies in classical mechanics but for an example for relations that result in different "correct relations". As that was your objection you should be more interested in supporting it than me.
You obviously cannot talk about things derived from Galilean transformations to discuss the generalisation to SR since SR instead have Lorentz transformations. You get things such as the inertia in different directions being different, as discussed in this thread. You simply cannot replace m with relativistic mass in F=ma as you seemingly want to do (that would qualify as a correct relation in classical mechanics).
 
  • #116
DrStupid said:
And that’s the problem. By forcing the mass as used in classical mechanics to remain frame-independent in SR, everything where mass is involved doesn’t work anymore and needs to be amended. How is that a better correspondence than leaving as many definitions unchanged as possible?
This in my opinion shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how SR works and how it corresponds to the Newtonian limit. The only reason you need to ”amend” anything is your insistence on using 3-vectors rather than 4-vectors, which is the natural thing to use in SR.
 
  • #117
DrStupid said:
And that’s the problem. By forcing the mass as used in classical mechanics to remain frame-independent in SR, everything where mass is involved doesn’t work anymore and needs to be amended. How is that a better correspondence than leaving as many definitions unchanged as possible?

Well, as I said in another thread, you can retcon Newtonian physics so that the concept of mass, and the dynamics in terms of mass are almost exactly unchanged in going from Newton's physics to Einstein's physics (Special Relativity, not General Relativity).
  1. Associated with every (slower-than-light) object is a monotonically increasing affine parameter ##s##.
  2. Also associated with every object is a scalar value, ##m##. ##m## is invariant under coordinate changes.
  3. The path of the object through spacetime can then be characterized by a 4-velocity ##V## with components in an inertial Cartesian coordinate system given by: ##(\frac{dx}{ds}, \frac{dy}{ds}, \frac{dz}{ds}, \frac{dt}{ds})##. ##V## is a vector under coordinate changes.
  4. Combining the scalar and the 4-velocity gives a 4-momentum: ##P = m V##. The 4-momenta of a collection of objects is additive, and is conserved in collisions (at least if we ignore long-range forces).
  5. Each object obeys Newton's second law of motion (both relativistically and nonrelativistically): ##F = m \frac{dV}{ds}##, where ##F## is a 4-vector quantity under changes of coordinates.
These facts hold for both Newton's and Einstein's physics, at least if we only consider short-range forces. The biggest difference is the affine parameter ##s##. In nonrelativistic physics, ##ds = dt##. In relativistic physics, ##ds = \sqrt{dt^2 - \frac{1}{c^2} (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)}##. Because the relation between ##s## and ##t## is so trivial in Newtonian physics, the 4th component of 4-vectors is pretty boring:
  • ##V^t = 1##
  • ##F^t = 0##
  • ##P^t = m##
So Newtonian physics is essentially 3-dimensional, rather than 4-dimensional, although the 4th components are necessary in order for velocity, momentum, and force to be vectors under coordinate changes involving time.
 

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  • #118
Orodruin said:
You obviously cannot talk about things derived from Galilean transformations to discuss the generalisation to SR since SR instead have Lorentz transformations.

That’s why I asked you for relations which are not based on Galilean transformation.

Orodruin said:
You simply cannot replace m with relativistic mass in F=ma as you seemingly want to do (that would qualify as a correct relation in classical mechanics).

No, I don’t want to do something like that. This is an example for a relation that is based on Galilean transformation because it only holds for constant mass and the mass (as used in classical mechanics) of a closed system is constant under Galilean transformation but not under Lorentz transformation. The original relation F=dp/dt works with both transformations.
 
  • #119
Orodruin said:
This in my opinion shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how SR works and how it corresponds to the Newtonian limit. The only reason you need to ”amend” anything is your insistence on using 3-vectors rather than 4-vectors, which is the natural thing to use in SR.

SR is not a matter of 3- or 4-vectors. They are just different formalisms to describe the same physics.
 
  • #120
stevendaryl said:
So Newtonian physics is essentially 3-dimensional, rather than 4-dimensional, although the 4th components are necessary in order for velocity, momentum, and force to be vectors under coordinate changes involving time.

That's why Newton's definition of momentum is p=m·v and not P=m·V. The equations may look similar but they are actually different and have different physical meanings. Replacing one by the other has concequences. One of them is a different concept of mass.
 

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