Can We Discover a Number Set More General Than Reals with Similar Properties?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the exploration of whether a number set can be discovered that is more general than the real numbers while retaining certain fundamental properties such as commutativity, order, addition, multiplication, and division. The conversation touches on theoretical aspects of number sets, their properties, and potential applications in solving problems.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that there may be a set of numbers more general than the reals that retains basic properties, referencing algebraic geometry as a potential avenue for discovery.
  • Another participant points out that complex numbers do not form an ordered field, indicating limitations in extending properties beyond the reals.
  • A claim is made that any number system beyond complex numbers tends to lose certain field properties, with examples like quaternions and octonions illustrating the loss of commutativity and associativity, respectively.
  • A further participant challenges the initial question by asking for clarification on what constitutes "basic properties of the real numbers," noting the omission of associativity and questioning the meaning of "order" in this context.
  • The discussion includes references to specific theorems, such as Hurwitz's and Frobenius's, suggesting that understanding these concepts is essential for refining the original question.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the feasibility of finding a more general number set with properties similar to the reals. There is no consensus on the definitions of "basic properties" or the implications of extending beyond complex numbers.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the need for precise definitions and understanding of mathematical properties when exploring the concept of number sets. Limitations arise from the ambiguity in terms like "order" and the implications of properties such as associativity and commutativity.

trees and plants
Hello there.We know that we have sets of numbers like the real numbers, complex numbers, quaternions, octonions.Could we find a set of numbers more general than that of real numbers that has basic properties of the real numbers like commutativity, order, addition, multiplication, division and can be used to solve problems? I know that complex numbers were discovered after attempts of solving polynomial equations, but perhaps algebraic geometry could find other kinds of numbers? Thank you.
 
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You can show that everything beyond complex numbers must lose properties of a field. Quaternions are not commutative any more, octonions are not associative any more, sedenions have zero divisors.
I'm not sure where exactly the proof is but if you click around starting from Hurwitz's theorem you probably find it.
 
universe function said:
Could we find a set of numbers more general than that of real numbers that has basic properties of the real numbers like commutativity, order, addition, multiplication, division and can be used to solve problems?

Unless you say specifically what you mean by "basic properties of the real numbers", this is not a specific question. For example, in your list of basic properties of the real numbers, you omitted associativity.

And it isn't clear what you mean by "order". For example, a finite field ( often introduced to students in a concrete way as "clock arithmetic"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular_arithmetic ) shares many properties with those of the real numbers. However, although one can "order" the elements of a finite field , the property " If ##a < b ## and ##c > 0## then ##ca < cb##" may not hold. Does the failure of this property disqualify a finite field from being, in your words, "a set of numbers more general than that of real numbers"?

If you study the technicalities needed to understand @mfb 's recommendation of Hurwitz's Theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurwitz's_theorem_(composition_algebras) or the Frobenius Theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frobenius_theorem_(real_division_algebras) you'll get an idea of the details you need to fill-in to make your question specific.
 

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