Can We Truly Touch Anything at the Atomic Scale?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of "touch" at the atomic scale, particularly in the context of quantum physics and the interactions between atoms. Participants explore whether it is accurate to say that we can truly "touch" anything, given that atoms repel each other and do not physically contact in the traditional sense. The conversation includes both theoretical and experiential perspectives on the meaning of touch.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that, at the atomic level, atoms do not actually touch each other due to repulsive forces, leading to questions about whether humans can truly touch one another.
  • Others argue that the human experience of touch is valid and meaningful, despite the atomic interactions, suggesting that the brain interprets these forces as touch.
  • A few participants emphasize the importance of defining "touch," noting that different interpretations can lead to confusion in discussions about the topic.
  • One participant introduces a more technical definition of touch based on electron interactions, suggesting that common definitions may not hold at the quantum level.
  • Another participant questions the relevance of introducing multiple definitions, arguing that it complicates the discussion rather than clarifying it.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about whether what we feel when touching objects is the objects themselves or merely the repulsive forces at play.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the definition of touch or whether it is accurate to say that we can touch objects at the atomic level. Multiple competing views remain, with some emphasizing the experiential aspect of touch and others focusing on the atomic interactions.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the limitations of definitions and the dependence on context when discussing physical concepts like touch. Participants acknowledge that their interpretations may vary based on their understanding of physics and everyday experiences.

Stjernsen
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I know this is a very common question but I've been seaching in forums all the time and couldn't find a clear answer. So quantum physics say that we can't actually "touch" anything because of our atoms( we're all made of atoms and they repel each other). correct me if I am wrong,please.. atoms indeed can't touch each other,
so does that mean that people(who are also made of atoms) can't actually touch each other either? for example if we hug someone we don't actually hug him? Or don't I touch my keyboard now ? Just examples, can't think of something else.
I am very curious about that, and I would appreciate an answer from someone that knows about this subject. thanks!
 
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Yes, technically, we do not touch each other. It's our brain playing the game here.
If you feel a force acted on your body, the brain detects this and "thinks" something is touching us
 
Actually, it depends on how you define "touch". As adjacent says, if you want to be technical and get to the atomic level, atoms don't touch each other but I don't think that has anything to do with the normal human meaning of the term, which we associate with a macro level.
 
Stjernsen said:
I know this is a very common question but I've been seaching in forums all the time and couldn't find a clear answer. So quantum physics say that we can't actually "touch" anything because of our atoms( we're all made of atoms and they repel each other). correct me if I am wrong,please.. atoms indeed can't touch each other,
so does that mean that people(who are also made of atoms) can't actually touch each other either? for example if we hug someone we don't actually hug him? Or don't I touch my keyboard now ? Just examples, can't think of something else.
I am very curious about that, and I would appreciate an answer from someone that knows about this subject. thanks!

I'm not sure what you had done and found in your search, but I did a quick search and found these:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=662340
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=458757

Did you read through them? If you did, then you'll see that a common theme in those discussions is the DEFINITION of what is meant by "touch". If you do not have a clear definition of what you mean, then you will get responses by members who have their own definitions of it, and you'll end up with a jumbled of answers.

Zz.
 
phinds said:
Actually, it depends on how you define "touch". As adjacent says, if you want to be technical and get to the atomic level, atoms don't touch each other but I don't think that has anything to do with the normal human meaning of the term, which we associate with a macro level.

I define "touch" with the normal human meaning as you said. What we experience everyday actually :) For example, I grab my iPhone, I sit on the chair, I hold my laptop's mouse,I hug my cat / my little brother,etc. I've heard many people saying that all these are illusions and we don't actually do anything of what I've described. I can't think of more examples now. I am sorry if I'm still innacurate
 
Stjernsen said:
I define "touch" with the normal human meaning as you said. What we experience everyday actually :) For example, I grab my iPhone, I sit on the chair, I hold my laptop's mouse,I hug my cat / my little brother,etc. I've heard many people saying that all these are illusions and we don't actually do anything of what I've described. I can't think of more examples now. I am sorry if I'm still innacurate

Trying to mix scientific and normal-English meanings of words is often a waste of time. They are "right" at a micro level but so what? If you were to tell an scientifically illiterate bush tribesman that he can't actually "touch" anything he'd think you were crazy. Is he really wrong?
 
Stjernsen said:
I define "touch" with the normal human meaning as you said. What we experience everyday actually :)
Then, by that definition, clearly we can and do actually "touch". Every moment of every day you obtain first-hand experimental confirmation of the fact.
 
Stjernsen said:
I define "touch" with the normal human meaning as you said. What we experience everyday actually :) For example, I grab my iPhone, I sit on the chair, I hold my laptop's mouse,I hug my cat / my little brother,etc. I've heard many people saying that all these are illusions and we don't actually do anything of what I've described. I can't think of more examples now. I am sorry if I'm still innacurate

Then you've answered your own question. We DO "touch", in the pedestrian meaning of it. Which now makes we puzzle over why you would ask such a question in a physics forum, since this really isn't a physics question.

Zz.
 
In order to say that atoms don't touch, you would have to claim that no part of one atom is ever at a zero distance from a part of another atom. Under normal conditions, atoms are surrounded by electron shells, so the parts that would be touching would be electrons. Electrons are effectively point object, with a radius of approximately zero. So for two electrons to touch, they would have to be essentially superimposed on each other to an incredible precision. They are also charged. So, for a multitude of reasons (especially one I haven't mentioned), that can't happen.

But, the scenario above is fictitious. The electrons aren't at specific locations, so to define touching the way we did presumes a condition (specific location) that does not exist. People who claim that atoms do not touch are making valid points (no pun intended), but are doing so by subtly creating a fictional scenario.

At this level of physics, a more solid definition of "touching" would be to look at how much of an effect each electron cloud was having on the other and picking some threshold that would be considered a "touch".
 
  • #10
.Scott, why are you bringing in yet another definition of "touching", one that differs from the OP's stated one? How can this possibly clarify more than it confuses?
 
  • #11
Vanadium 50 said:
.Scott, why are you bringing in yet another definition of "touching", one that differs from the OP's stated one? How can this possibly clarify more than it confuses?
I was addressing the overall conversation. Some say "shut up and calculate", but for the many who aren't ready to calculate, there is inexact conversation.
The OP said "So quantum physics say that we can't actually "touch" anything because of our atoms( we're all made of atoms and they repel each other)." So I was describing the kind of definition that you would have to use to make that statement work. My point was that the notion that "atoms don't touch" is inexact. When you get down to the atomic level, there are quantum effects that undermine any common definition of "touching".
 
  • #12
I will try to clarify it as much as I can. When in our EVERYDAY LIVES are in contact with anything, do we feel this thing or we actually feel the repulsive forces ?? Example, when I grab my phone,am I in contact with the phone, or the repulsive forces between my skin and the phone ?? What's that I feel now when I type on my keyboard? the keys actually or the repulsive force between my finger and the keyboard and I think /my brain says that is the keys ? In general do we only feel forces when we grab /press on things ? Because that's what I've heard. By the way sorry for the delayance but I lost my internet connection for some days :)
 
  • #13
Stjernsen said:
I will try to clarify it as much as I can. When in our EVERYDAY LIVES are in contact with anything, do we feel this thing or we actually feel the repulsive forces ?? Example, when I grab my phone,am I in contact with the phone, or the repulsive forces between my skin and the phone ?? What's that I feel now when I type on my keyboard? the keys actually or the repulsive force between my finger and the keyboard and I think /my brain says that is the keys ? In general do we only feel forces when we grab /press on things ? Because that's what I've heard. By the way sorry for the delayance but I lost my internet connection for some days :)

It's the repulsive forces that you're feeling. There's no such thing as "actually touching" because if you were to magnify the surface of the keyboard keys and your finger enough, we'd see that neither the keys nor your finger has a clear surface to touch. Instead, you could imagine fuzzy boundary regions that resist being made to overlap.
 
  • #14
Nugatory said:
It's the repulsive forces that you're feeling. There's no such thing as "actually touching" because if you were to magnify the surface of the keyboard keys and your finger enough, we'd see that neither the keys nor your finger has a clear surface to touch. Instead, you could imagine fuzzy boundary regions that resist being made to overlap.

wish I could magnify it that much so I could see what does actually happen :P
 
  • #15
Stjernsen said:
I will try to clarify it as much as I can. When in our EVERYDAY LIVES are in contact with anything, do we feel this thing or we actually feel the repulsive forces ?? Example, when I grab my phone,am I in contact with the phone, or the repulsive forces between my skin and the phone ?? What's that I feel now when I type on my keyboard? the keys actually or the repulsive force between my finger and the keyboard and I think /my brain says that is the keys ? In general do we only feel forces when we grab /press on things ? Because that's what I've heard. By the way sorry for the delayance but I lost my internet connection for some days :)
You say these things as though they were mutually exclusive. Why do you think it is not both "contact with the phone" and "repulsive forces between my skin and the phone"?

Using the standard everyday definition of "touch", as you mentioned above then the "repulsive forces" are the mechanism of "touch". You do, in fact, touch and you do so by repulsive forces. They are not mutually exclusive, the second is the mechanism of the first.

It is like asking if you actually hear sound or instead just vibrations.
 
  • #16
Thank you DaleSpam perfect answer ! So if I understand right without the repulsive forces we shouldn't be able to "touch"anything because then we would chemically react with it. (lol) We can "touch" because the atoms can't . Correct ??
 
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  • #17
Doesn't some "spot welding" often occur? That is, don't a few parts of the two surfaces often react chemically and bond, contributing to the frictional "force"?

Of course, even at this level there is no physical contact. But, you'd be hard pressed to find closer bonds without breaking down to quarks.
 

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