Can you extract oil from lichen for biodiesel?

[Ivan Seeking]

While exploring the information on biodiesel, it became clear that the feedstock for this all around. As it turns out, blue-green algae - cyanobacteria, or pond scum - is a good producer of hydrocarbons. Knowing that lichen is made from cyanobacteria and fungus, and considering the abudance of the oil allegedly present, it seemed that I should be able to pull a handful of lichen from a tree, smash it up in a glass of hot water, steep, strain, allow the water and oil to separate, dry what floats on top, and I should have a flammable residue.

It worked! How about that? The stuff really does grow on trees.

I guess I just had to convince myself that it really is that easy.

 

[Rach3]

Not exactly a solution to the energy crisis, but very interesting nonetheless. Any link saying what kind of hydrocarbons these are?

 

[Cyrus]

Lichen are the fake trees you use to make Train layouts.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Not exactly a solution to the energy crisis, but very interesting nonetheless. Any link saying what kind of hydrocarbons these are?

Actually, it could be just that. The hydrocarbons are essentially vegetable oil that is easily converted to diesel fuel with about a net 350% return on the invested energy. It is estimated that an area the size of Texas could grow enough algae to replace all of the world's petroleum.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Actually, it could be just that. The hydrocarbons are essentially vegetable oil that is easily converted to diesel fuel with about a net 350% return on the invested energy. It is estimated that an area the size of Texas could grow enough algae to replace all of the world's petroleum.

a lot of plants can be a source of oil. You are saying lichen is superior to others in some important way?

Also: you mention only diesel. That's a pretty "dirty" fuel. Can the lichen oil be refined to something that burns cleaner?

 

[Rach3]

Actually, it could be just that. The hydrocarbons are essentially vegetable oil that is easily converted to diesel fuel with about a net 350% return on the invested energy. It is estimated that an area the size of Texas could grow enough algae to replace all of the world's petroleum.

Oops, my mistake. I was thinking of lichen growing on trees, like how impractical is that? Algaes make much more sense. I'm envisioning a large offshore plant of some sort...

 

[Rach3]

Also: you mention only diesel. That's a pretty "dirty" fuel. Can the lichen oil be refined to something that burns cleaner?

Well, if the hydrocarbons come from recent photosynthesis by algae or lichen... then it's zero-emissions, the CO2 emitted in the end is exactly what went into the algae to begin with.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

a lot of plants can be a source of oil. You are saying lichen is superior to others in some important way?

No, but it was something that should contain a fair amount of cyanobacteria that is right outside the door. I just wanted to see if it was really that easy.

Cyanobacteria are good producers of HCs, but the algae or microalgae chosen depends on the application. And from what I have read, there is opportunity for discovery in this area. After reading and reading and reading about what has been tried, what results were obtained, and what recommendations are made for further research, it comes down to either trying strains that are indigenous to the area, or developing hybrid strains to maximize HC production. MIT is running a system of green algae that removes CO2 from the exhaust gases from industrial processes - CO2 scrubbers that can be converted to fuel. It seems that green algae is best for this application. Seen below.
http://oakhavenpc.org/images/MIT-CogenPlant.jpg
http://oakhavenpc.org/cultivating_algae.htm

Also: you mention only diesel. That's a pretty "dirty" fuel. Can the lichen oil be refined to something that burns cleaner?

The first part of the answer is that we don't want to refine it to a higher quality fuel. This is what kills the efficiency of the energy chain with ethanol. For every 100 gallons of ethanol that you make, at best it took at least 90 gallons of ethanol to make it. At worst, you are losing energy and really driving the system indirectly with petroleum or other power sources such as the electric grid. I would have to look to be sure of the precise number, but biodiesel is cited as yielding about a 350% return on the invested energy.

All in all, biodiesel is much cleaner than petro diesel. So in addition to the new clean diesel engines, and even a diesel hybrid coming to the US from Honda this year, it seems that domestically produced biodiesel burned in modern engines is a practical option on all fronts. We address issues of national security, oil demand, pollution controls, and if you're sold on anthropogenic global warming, the system is CO2 neutral. Not to mention that it would be beneficial to keep the $500,000,000,000 or so spend on foreign oil, at home. Also, since we already have [will have] plenty of demand from the trucking industry, we can make the conversion without suffering the so called chicken and egg problem.

Diesels

Shedding their reputation as belchy, smoky messes, diesel engines are growing in popularity among American consumers. Since 2000, registration of diesel-powered passenger vehicles has gone up 80%, according to R.L. Polk.

"Americans are increasingly looking to diesel as a readily available solution to help alleviate their pain at the pump," says Allen Schaeffer of the Diesel Technology Forum.

Diesel fuel can cost more than gasoline — about 9 cents a gallon right now, says AAA — but diesel gets 20% to 40% better fuel efficiency, meaning you go farther on a gallon.

Right now, there are only a handful of diesel cars available to U.S. consumers. Volkswagen sells its Beetle, Golf and Jetta in diesel versions, and Mercedes sells the E320 sedan in diesel. Chevy, Dodge, Ford and GMC sell diesel pickups.

There could be more in the future. Strict emissions laws have kept many automakers from jumping on board. But DaimlerChrysler promises its BlueTec engine, when used with low-sulphur diesel available in the USA this fall, will make its diesel engines clean enough to meet new emissions standards in all 50 states.

Chrysler Group said Monday that it will quit selling the diesel version of Jeep Liberty's small SUV in the USA because its engine doesn't meet the new standards. However, Chrysler will sell a diesel version of the 2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee full-size SUV with a Mercedes engine.

Ford is considering a diesel hybrid engine, and BMW is considering bringing a diesel version of its 330 sedan to the USA.

The downside? Even though the technology is better, diesels are still louder than traditional gas engines.[continued]

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2006-06-06-alternative-fuel-usat_x.htm

Also
http://www.americanlemans.com/News/Article.aspx?ID=1872

And, this guy will be running biodiesel
http://www.cld.co.nz/earthrace.htm

This is a nice page for related links and info:
http://www.castoroil.in/reference/plant_oils/uses/fuel/sources/algae/biodiesel_algae.html

 

[Ivan Seeking]

One note of caution regarding all literature on biodiesel: The price of fuel has doubled or tripled since most was written. The reason that this is practical now is the price of fuel, which can only go up in the long run.

 

[Mk]

I haven't seen anything critical of ethenol. I've only seen how "it will save us from our addiction to oil," and how good it is! What is bad??

 

[Ivan Seeking]

We only get to keep at most ten of every one-hundred gallons made.

Oh yes, these are the two biggest objections to ethanol. First, we can't possibly grow enough corn to replace gasoline with ethanol. Next, if we tried, people would have to stop eating corn. Ethanol puts food directly into competition with energy. Biodiesel from algae avoids this problem.

We can also make ethanol from algae. In fact there is a specific path in the micro algae that selects either HC production, or sugar production. Some research is being done that seeks to control this mechanism.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

...and we can see how long it took to happen.

Corn futures fuelled by energy traders' interest
Kevin Morrison, London
June 21, 2006

TRADING volumes in US corn futures have reached record volumes as energy traders flood the market.
Corn might be more normally associated with breakfast cereals or animal feed. But the energy industry has begun showing a vast appetite for the crop as it becomes increasingly used in the manufacturing of ethanol.

Bernard Dan, chief executive of the Chicago Board of Trade, said: "The link between corn, ethanol and gasoline is becoming closer and as a result we are seeing more interest in our corn contract from energy players." [continued]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19535878-36375,00.html

 

[zoobyshoe]

Ivan, thanks for the comprehensive, informative answers to my questions. This all sounds quite a bit more realistic than I thought at first.

Your wording here:

We address issues of national security, oil demand, pollution controls...

gives the impression you, yourself, are involved with some movement promoting this oil-from-lichen (or algae). Is that the case?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Again, the best options for this are varous micro algae, not lichen. That was just a random selection for testing. And no, I'm not formally involved with any group yet but presently I am seeking some level of involvement. And since I have five+ acres, I might just grow some algae.

When I say "we", I guess I mean us humans.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Thread name changed to help avoid further confusion.

But wait; blue-green algae is really a bacteria.

Not my fault. Blame Moonbear and her kind.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Okay, one more link. This is a thread that I started to explore the feasibility of FEGs that was somewhat derailed by a compelling argument for algae. This was the first that I had heard of a serious effort on this front. There was also a fair amount of effort to look at the real numbers for the current world energy demand and how various energy options compare. The bit about algae picks up on pages two and three.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=108344

 

[rcgldr]

can't possibly grow enough corn to replace gasoline with ethanol.

As I posted in another thread, it's much more efficient to make ethanol from sugar cane. Sugar cane could be grown in the south-eastern states of the USA, and is grown in other countries to produce ethanol. The issue with USA production is labor costs, as there hasn't been a machine made to harvest sugar cane. Because of USA labor costs, it's cheaper to import sugar than grow it here, so it's not grown in the USA anymore.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

As I posted in another thread, it's much more efficient to make ethanol from sugar cane. Sugar cane could be grown in the south-eastern states of the USA, and is grown in other countries to produce ethanol. The issue with USA production is labor costs, as there hasn't been a machine made to harvest sugar cane. Because of USA labor costs, it's cheaper to import sugar than grow it here, so it's not grown in the USA anymore.

Do you have any numbers handy? This is the thing about algae biofuel stocks that about knocked me over. These are seemingly representitive of the results obtained from real crops.

Feedstock US Gallons/acre Litres/hectare
Soybean.... 40.... 375
Rapeseed... 110... 1,000
Mustard... 140... 1,300
Jatropha ...175... 1,590
Palm Oil ...650 ...5,800
Algae ...10,000 ...95,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

Algae is typically cited as yielding between 5000-15000 US Gallons per acre-year under well controlled conditions. Also, and this is key, it can be grown in salt or brackish water. It can also be used for sewage treatment.

This brought to mind the notion of a self-contained chemobioreactor septic system that has a faucet and hose attached for filling your diesel tank. Can you imagine trying to convince people of what's really coming out of the faucet?

 

[rcgldr]

ethanol from sugar cane

Do you have any numbers handy?

I only know it's a lot better than corn, but I'm also sure it's not as good as some of the stuff you've listed here. It's very popular in Brazil. Do a web search for "sugar cane ethanol Brazil", you'll find a lot of hits.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I only know it's a lot better than corn, but I'm also sure it's not as good as some of the stuff you've listed here. It's very popular in Brazil. Do a web search for "sugar cane ethanol Brazil", you'll find a lot of hits.

I was aware of Brazil's recent fame but didn't know how sugar cane compares to corn wrt energy demands or the gallon per acre yield.

... According to Brown, Brazil tops the world's efficiency in turning sugar cane to ethanol, producing 662 gallons from each acre under cultivation and providing an 8 to one return on the energy investment. In other words, Brazil gets 8 units of ethanol energy for each unit of energy required to produce it. American ethanol from corn produces 354 gallons per acre and returns only 1.5 units of energy for each unit required to produce it...

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976746069

So it certainly seems to be a much better option than corn. Of course we haven't looked at the cultivation costs which I suspect will be the great equalizer. Algae will cost much more per acre to produce than corn or sugar cane, so all options could be competitive for now.

Note also that the precise numbers for corn produced ethanol are hotly debated. From what I have read, a 10% return on invested energy is more like it. Some scientists still argue that the system is a net negative energy yield.