Can You Ionize Hydrogen in This New Shoot the Electron Game?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a new game titled "Shoot the Electron," which simulates the ionization of hydrogen by shooting an electron at the electron within a hydrogen atom. Participants explore the underlying physics, particularly focusing on the forces at play, including the Coulomb force, while debating the relevance of quantum mechanics in the game's framework.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant introduces a game where players attempt to ionize hydrogen by shooting an electron at it, using a model that assumes a proton as a thin shell of positive charge.
  • Another participant argues that the game oversimplifies atomic behavior, noting that electrons do not behave like point particles and that hydrogen exists in multiple forms, including H2.
  • A participant acknowledges the various forms of hydrogen and explains the game's progression through different hydrogen species, emphasizing the Coulomb force as the primary interaction modeled.
  • Concerns are raised about the exclusion of quantum concepts, with one participant asserting that quantum effects are crucial at atomic scales and questioning the game's validity without them.
  • Another participant reiterates the importance of the Coulomb force in calculating the binding energy of the proton and electron, suggesting that ignoring it would be nonsensical.
  • Irony is noted in the discussion regarding the dismissal of the Coulomb force, leading to a light-hearted exchange between participants.
  • A participant shares their experience with animations involving gravity and expresses interest in incorporating magnetic forces into future projects, while suggesting that relativistic effects may not be significant at the scales involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relevance of quantum mechanics and the appropriateness of modeling atomic interactions solely through the Coulomb force. There is no consensus on the game's scope or validity, with multiple competing perspectives remaining unresolved.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations regarding the assumptions made in the game's model, particularly the exclusion of quantum mechanics and the simplification of atomic interactions to only the Coulomb force.

edguy99
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New game "Shoot the electron"

Hi there,

I am interested in some feedback (not to harsh I hope) on a "shoot the electron" game.

http://www.animatedphysics.com/games/shoottheelectron.htm

Basically you are attempting to ionize hydrogen by shooting an electron at the electron within the hydrogen atom. To stop the electron from falling endlessly towards the proton, the proton is assumed to be a thin shell of positive charge 53 picometers in size and that electrons do not feel the coulomb force once they are inside the shell.

TIA.
 
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It has nothing to do with shooting the electron. Electron in an atom doesn't behave like a point particle. And hydrogen molecule is not a single atom, but H2.
 


Thanks for the feedback. Hydrogen comes in a number of forms (H, H-, H+, H2-, H2para, H2ortho and I think a fair amount of H3+ is found in space) certainly with H2 being the most common. The game starts with as single proton and electron (H) for level 1, level 2 moves on to H2- and on from there.

I agree the electron doesn't behave like a point particle, but at these scales, the most important force on it (and the only one used in the game) is the coulomb force. Magnetic forces, relativity and quantum concepts are certainly important but are beyond the scope of the game. This game is only modeling the coulomb force between multiple protons and electrons with a provision to keep the single proton/electron binding energy from going past 13.6 evolts, hence the shell at 53 picometers.
 


edguy99 said:
quantum concepts are certainly important but are beyond the scope of the game

Quantum effects are what governs the world on the scale of single atoms. If they are beyond the scope of the game, game has no scope.

You can as well ignore coulomb forces and concentrate on gravity only, it will make about as much sense.
 


Borek said:
Quantum effects are what governs the world on the scale of single atoms. If they are beyond the scope of the game, game has no scope.

You can as well ignore coulomb forces and concentrate on gravity only, it will make about as much sense.

At the bohr radius of 53 picometers, the binding energy of a stationary proton and electron is 13.6 evolts calculated purely from the coulomb force. Certainly gravity does not have an influence, but I don't think the coulomb force can be ignored.
 


edguy99 said:
I don't think the coulomb force can be ignored.

Apparently you missed the irony.
 


Borek said:
Apparently you missed the irony.

Apparently I did. Peace brother.

WRT to gravity, I have done a great many animations using gravity, but this is my first with the coulomb force using the picometer distance scale and the attosecond time scale. I am thinking of trying magnetic forces next combined with the coulomb force to see if I can do an old style tv animation where electrons accelerated by the coulomb force have their direction controlled by magnetic forces. I have read the electrons are only accelerated to about 1/2 c, so relativity should not be very relevant and can be (hopefully) ignored.
 

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