Can You Sue a Company for CO2 Emissions?

[Opus_723]

This is something I've been wondering about for awhile.

People sue companies for damages all the time in cases of pollution. So I was curious if it would be possible for a group of individuals or organizations to sue a company for damages related to CO2 emissions, such as ocean acidification or climate change? Provided they could show that CO2 emissions were negatively affecting their property financially, could a person be awarded damages?

If not, why? If so, why isn't it happening yet?

I don't know much about law, so this is just a friendly question. Thanks.

 

[Al68]

Sure, why not be able to sue for something that every person and animal who ever lived must do to live (emit CO2)? Now that's a good one.

What we really need to be concerned about is dihydrogen oxide: It's all over the place and kills people by the thousands every year. We should just ban that outright.

 

[Opus_723]

I think that a court could make the distinction between CO2 from fossil fuels and that of the carbon cycle. Provided that distinction was made, I don't think the above would be a concern.

 

[AlephZero]

I think that a court could make the distinction between CO2 from fossil fuels and that of the carbon cycle. Provided that distinction was made, I don't think the above would be a concern.

Fossil fuels are part of the carbon cycle, just like any other dead plant material.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Sure, why not be able to sue for something that every person and animal who ever lived must do to live (emit CO2)? Now that's a good one.

If you start dumping six tons of CO2 out of your nose every day, yeah, maybe somebody should sue you

 

[Astronuc]

This is something I've been wondering about for awhile.

People sue companies for damages all the time in cases of pollution. So I was curious if it would be possible for a group of individuals or organizations to sue a company for damages related to CO2 emissions, such as ocean acidification or climate change? Provided they could show that CO2 emissions were negatively affecting their property financially, could a person be awarded damages?

If not, why? If so, why isn't it happening yet?

I don't know much about law, so this is just a friendly question. Thanks.

There are many legal problems with that. Firstly, no individual or group owns the ocean, although nations claim certain rights to the ocean within a certain distance of their shoreline.

CO₂ emissions is an on-going legal activity that has been accepted practice for several millenia.

Those sueing have likely produced CO₂ emissions themselves, and have benefitted from those companies who have produced CO₂ emissions.

It's not clear how one would prove beyond a reasonable doubt that CO₂ emissions were negatively affecting their property financially, although in a civil case, apparently reasonable doubt is not a necessary requirement.

 

[WhoWee]

Hmmm - perhaps Eric Holder should consider bringing a case against China and India - they have the most live emitters?

 

[russ_watters]

Im pretty sure such lawsuits already exist based on the interstate commerce clause and the Clean Air Act. I'll google when I get home from work...

 

[Gokul43201]

Hmmm - perhaps Eric Holder should consider bringing a case against China and India - they have the most live emitters?

India: 1.4 metric tons per person (2007)
China: 4.9 metric tons per person (2007)
USA: 18.9 metric tons per person (2007)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita

 

[WhoWee]

India: 1.4 metric tons per person (2007)
China: 4.9 metric tons per person (2007)
USA: 18.9 metric tons per person (2007)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita

From your link - the TOP 10 - (it looks like smaller populations have lower per person ratios)?
"1. Qatar 25.2 36.7 54.3 60.9 58.7 58.6 59.2 65.8 57.0 53.3 56.3 43.2 40.9 41.8 50.5 64.2 49.5 55.4
2. Netherlands Antilles 32.6 26.9 22.6 35.0 34.3 34.1 32.5 34.2 1.5 11.6 31.6 32.2 31.0 30.1 31.3 30.7 29.4 32.5
3. United Arab Emirates 29.4 30.2 29.5 31.1 33.1 30.3 16.9 16.4 34.2 29.0 39.1 33.3 23.3 28.2 28.7 28.3 28.7 31.1
4. Kuwait 19.0 5.1 10.0 16.9 20.8 30.8 28.5 33.8 32.3 31.4 31.9 28.8 26.2 28.9 31.1 33.3 31.1 30.2
5. Bahrain 24.1 22.6 20.1 27.8 27.2 27.7 26.3 28.5 29.6 28.4 30.4 22.7 24.7 25.3 25.4 27.1 28.6 29.6
6. Trinidad and Tobago 13.9 17.1 17.0 13.5 15.8 16.6 17.1 15.0 15.0 17.7 18.9 19.2 20.6 21.2 24.0 23.5 26.1 27.9
7. Aruba 29.1 29.4 25.0 24.3 23.2 22.5 22.1 22.0 19.5 19.3 24.9 24.4 24.1 23.6 23.1 22.9 22.5 23.0
8. Luxembourg 25.9 27.6 30.2 27.3 25.4 20.4 20.4 18.8 17.3 17.8 18.9 19.4 21.0 21.9 24.1 24.4 24.1 22.8
9. Brunei 25.0 22.0 21.4 20.0 18.8 18.7 18.5 18.7 18.8 14.1 19.6 18.2 17.1 16.4 16.7 15.4 14.5 19.8
10. Falkland Islands 18.5 17.9 17.2 16.4 15.7 16.3 17.2 18.1 13.4 13 12.8 15 14.9 16.2 17.2 17.1 19.8 19.7
"

What is your point - I was making a joke.

 

[Jack21222]

It's not clear how one would prove beyond a reasonable doubt that CO₂ emissions were negatively affecting their property financially, although in a civil case, apparently reasonable doubt is not a necessary requirement.

I think you'd also have to prove that the defendant's CO2 is the one that was affecting you negatively, and not somebody else's CO2.

 

[Opus_723]

Fossil fuels are part of the carbon cycle, just like any other dead plant material.

Perhaps I should have been clearer. I just meant that fossil fuel CO2 is distinctly separate from the ongoing cycle of cellular respiration. It is effectively 'locked out' as far as the atmosphere is concerned, so a legal distinction shouldn't be too hard.

I think you'd also have to prove that the defendant's CO2 is the one that was affecting you negatively, and not somebody else's CO2.

That's a good point. That could be a deal-killer. However, the diffuse nature of climate change may be useful here. Would it be legally sound to show that a given company contributes to global warming, then determine what percentage of it they as a company have caused, and apportion damages based on that?

Obviously, using this method, the amount of damages claimed would be very low for any individual, so it would probably have to be a class action type thing.

Those sueing have likely produced CO2 emissions themselves, and have benefitted from those companies who have produced CO2 emissions.

Almost done quoting, but I thought I'd highlight this so I can explain how I view all of this. Although the plaintiffs likely benefited from the processes that caused the emissions, this isn't about net benefits. It's about redirecting the cost of emissions onto those who emitted. This way companies could pay something approaching (hopefully not exceeding, but I'm not sure how damage awards work) the true cost of the pollution. Any company that emits CO2 could be held accountable, but those who emit little would pay little.

 

[JaredJames]

You have to prove that the person / company you are taking to court has affected you in a negative way.

You can't claim company X caused pollution to the world, therefore I want them to compensate me.

Now, what you are proposing above seems to be a tax, not a case of a company / individual being sued.

 

[russ_watters]

I think you'd also have to prove that the defendant's CO2 is the one that was affecting you negatively, and not somebody else's CO2.

As I alluded to, that can be gotten around by not just suing one company, but suing (in effect) every company by suing a government.

California sued the federal government for not regulating greenhouse gases better:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/07/31/us-california-emissions-idUSN3044677620080731

And states have sued each other over carbon dioxide reduction on energy purchased across state lines: http://californiawatch.org/dailyrep...re-legal-assault-californias-climate-law-4564

And states have sued power companies directly, which apparently is not up at the USSC for consideration of whether they have the right to do that: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/03/15/BAAH1IAOQ6.DTL&feed=rss.bayarea

 

[Opus_723]

You can't claim company X caused pollution to the world, therefore I want them to compensate me.

Now, what you are proposing above seems to be a tax, not a case of a company / individual being sued.

Why can't you do this? If your property is damaged by warming, and a given company contributed x% of that warming, then can't they be liable for x% of the damage?

Is there a legal reason this isn't possible? I'm honestly just curious.

Also, I think it differs from a tax in that damage has to be proven, the company doesn't pay unless sued, and the money goes to the property owner, not the government.

 

[Drakkith]

Why can't you do this? If your property is damaged by warming, and a given company contributed x% of that warming, then can't they be liable for x% of the damage?

Is there a legal reason this isn't possible? I'm honestly just curious.

Also, I think it differs from a tax in that damage has to be proven, the company doesn't pay unless sued, and the money goes to the property owner, not the government.

Because unless they have violated laws that are already in effect, then they havn't done anything wrong. Not to mention a million other factors like the suing person contributing to the CO2 as well by using electricity, burning gasoline in an engine, smoking a cigerette, ETC.

I can see the government being sued, but not a private company itself. I believe that in general, you have to break some sort of law to be able to be sued. (Or do something like negligence, which CO2 emissions I don't see as being that)

 

[Opus_723]

Because unless they have violated laws that are already in effect, then they havn't done anything wrong. Not to mention a million other factors like the suing person contributing to the CO2 as well by using electricity, burning gasoline in an engine, smoking a cigerette, ETC.

I can see the government being sued, but not a private company itself. I believe that in general, you have to break some sort of law to be able to be sued. (Or do something like negligence, which CO2 emissions I don't see as being that)

If a company can be sued because their hot coffee burnt someone, I think they can be sued for causing property damage through pollution. It's not illegal to make hot coffee either.

As for the suer also being guilty of emitting carbon, I don't see how that's a problem. If a thief gets robbed, that doesn't mean the robber can't be tried. And to nitpick I would point out that using electricity doesn't emit carbon, producing it does. The cigarettes and gasoline are good points, but like I said, I don't think it affects a person's ability to sue.

 

[Drakkith]

Using electricity does, as it makes the generators work harder and consume more fuel. (IE the electricity you use has to be made. Just like the car you use had to be made. Saying that purchasing a car doesn't make CO2 is nonsense, as you ignore the whole process to create it in the first place)

And the hot coffee is an example of negligence in my opinion. That was something that could harm someone. I'd be willing to be that my neighbor could sue me if spilled hot coffee on him.

But suing because of CO2 emissions? Are they breaking the law? Are they harming the environment more than anyone else without a good reason? (Some things require more power or have different circumstances than others that necessitate more CO2)

If they don't have a good reason, or if they aren't following established laws, then sure. If they were venting all of their exhaust through a pipe that spewed it into my back yard, I could probably sue them for that yes. Otherwise I wouldn't think so.

 

[Opus_723]

The company is still producing the electricity and emissions. The customers may increase demand, but the company is creating the product and the emissions. No one forces the company to do so.

It's not about them damaging the environment. I don't see how anyone could sue for that. But if I can show that their pollution is contributing to damage to my property, that's different. You said the burnt coffee lady could sue because the food company's negligence caused her bodily harm. I am arguing that the power company's negligence is also doing harm to my property through pollution. I am pretty sure you can sue for property damage. It doesn't matter if I have a good reason for damaging someone's property, I'm still liable for it.

 

[Drakkith]

Sure, declare what damage the company has done to your property through CO2 emissions, and then have some evidence that it was PRIMARILY the companies fault through negligence or something. It's not about whether you can try to sue someone, its about whether this is likely to actually go through to the court with a likely chance of you winning. Otherwise this whole conversation is a moot point.

The company is still producing the electricity and emissions. The customers may increase demand, but the company is creating the product and the emissions. No one forces the company to do so.

Of course, but YOU are the one purchasing the electricity with the full capability to look up how your electricity is being generated. You are paying them to generate your electricity via the method they have. Don't like it? Find another source of energy or something. You can't purchase something and then complain because the manufacturing process caused some pollution. Not unless it was waaay outside the norm or something.

 

[Opus_723]

Sure, declare what damage the company has done to your property through CO2 emissions, and then have some evidence that it was PRIMARILY the companies fault through negligence or something. It's not about whether you can try to sue someone, its about whether this is likely to actually go through to the court with a likely chance of you winning. Otherwise this whole conversation is a moot point.

I didn't say it would be easy. But you haven't convinced me that it's impossible, or wrong ethically. And if it was attempted successfully, it paves the way for future attempts.

Of course, but YOU are the one purchasing the electricity with the full capability to look up how your electricity is being generated. You are paying them to generate your electricity via the method they have. Don't like it? Find another source of energy or something. You can't purchase something and then complain because the manufacturing process caused some pollution. Not unless it was waaay outside the norm or something.

Morally you might be considered a hypocrite, but the company still caused the emissions voluntarily.

 

[Al68]

If a company can be sued because their hot coffee burnt someone, I think they can be sued for causing property damage through pollution. It's not illegal to make hot coffee either.

And suing a company because their coffee was hot was a frivolous and despicable lawsuit that should have never seen the light of day. For the same reason: the company merely provided what the consumer asked for.

 

[Al68]

If you start dumping six tons of CO2 out of your nose every day, yeah, maybe somebody should sue you

On what basis? Socialist propaganda does not equal evidence.

Can I sue Walmart because they show a smiley face on their commercials? After all, their smiley faces cause cancer. If power hungry politicians repeat that enough times to convince their sheeple ignorant drone constituents that it's true, then can I sue?

 

[Opus_723]

And suing a company because their coffee was hot was a frivolous and despicable lawsuit that should have never seen the light of day. For the same reason: the company merely provided what the consumer asked for.

You're right, the coffee argument doesn't really apply here. The lady bought the coffee, then spilled it on herself. Her fault.

CO2 emissions damage my property even though I have not permitted the company to do this. Their fault.

On what basis? Socialist propaganda does not equal evidence.

Can I sue Walmart because they show a smiley face on their commercials? After all, their smiley faces cause cancer. If power hungry politicians repeat that enough times to convince their sheeple ignorant drone constituents that it's true, then can I sue?

I would hope scientific evidence would be used, rather than propaganda. If you dispute the science, then publish a peer-reviewed report. The merits of climate science claims should be debated by climate scientists, seeing as it's their job.

Also: if you can prove that smiley faces cause cancer, then yes.

The court ruling should follow the evidence. All I need to do is present evidence that CO2 emissions have damaged my property, and that the company I'm suing contributed.

 

[Al68]

The court ruling should follow the evidence. All I need to do is present evidence that CO2 emissions have damaged my property, and that the company I'm suing contributed.

I agree with your logic, but the claim itself is silly. Like the smiley faces causing cancer.

All we currently have is a theory, unproven assertions, advocates caught fudging data, and a known liar claiming that "the debate is over" in a feeble effort to avoid scrutiny.

And a company being sued for something everyone does to some extent. Sure, we might distinguish between human breath and coal stacks, but that distinction evaporates with a claim that CO2 itself is the issue.

 

[Opus_723]

Except the claim has never been that CO2 itself is the issue. The claim is that reintroducing CO2 to the atmosphere by burning fossil fuels is the issue.

Regardless, I'd rather this thread didn't turn into a debate over climate change and ocean acidification itself. I'm interested in whether or not, assuming that the CO2 DID cause damage, this strategy would work to lay the costs on the company causing the damage, rather than the property owner.

 

[Al68]

Regardless, I'd rather this thread didn't turn into a debate over climate change and ocean acidification itself. I'm interested in whether or not, assuming that the CO2 DID cause damage, this strategy would work to lay the costs on the company causing the damage, rather than the property owner.

Even under such an assumption, the company is no more responsible for any wrongful act than the act of purchasing their legal product.

It would not be a case of a company knowing something about a product they were selling that their customers didn't know, so that the company committed a wrongful act but their customers didn't.

Even under an assumption that CO2 caused some specified damage, society at large would be equally liable in a way that would make it impossible to legitimately try to concentrate blame on a single entity, or group of entities.

 

[Opus_723]

I don't agree. The act of buying a product generates no emissions. Only the act of producing the product does. This is entirely a voluntary act on the company's part. They choose to produce more because they profit from it. They don't have to meet demand if they don't want to.

Also, the CO2 that the company emits would damage my property regardless of whether or not I purchase electricity (for example) from them. I could get my electricity from company A, but company B's emissions still do damage to my property. In this case, it makes sense to sue company B.

Finally, even if I get my electricity from company A, property damage is not a condition of that transaction. I may be a hypocrite for buying a product whose creation damaged my property, but I still have the right to sue because I never gave them permission to damage my property. I simply paid for and received a product that they produced voluntarily. Electricity can be produced in many ways, but they chose to do so in a way that damages my property without permission from me.

 

[talk2glenn]

This is the United States, not Brazil.

Tort is based on the common law principle - to sue succesfully, you must show that you were harmed, that the harm was due to negligent and unreasonable conduct, and that the harm resulted in determinable financial loss. The purpose of financial reward is to restore the defendants financial condition to what it was before the loss, not reward the plaintiff or punish the defendant; the exception is punitive damages, where are special rewards in specific cases authorized by statute.

On the matter of CO2 emissions, no plaintiff has a case, for innumerable reasons; such a case would violate every principle of common law tort precedent. Specifically, no plaintiff could show a non-tenuous damage (how does one apportion fault, when no statistician can link specific actions to specific outcomes), that the action was negligent (there is no legislative action informing business conduct with regard to CO2 emissions, or authorizing the judiciary to address these claims; how would you demonstrate unreasonableness when nobody can agree that global warming is occurring, predict with reasonable accuracy its effects, or attribute with any specificity its causes), or that the action resulted in determinable financial loss. A hypothetical decline in property values is not a determinable financial loss, or one could sue a neighbor for painting his house a particular color, or a bank for foreclosing on distresssed properties. The defendant must have taken deliberate, direct action that damaged the plaintiff financially. An indirect action that resulted in diminished market value doesn't count - for example, if the markets decided a property was worth less based on, say, proximity to a power plant, through no fault of the electric utility. Again, the only exceptions here are those specifically granted by statute.

For a lengthy, professional summation of these issues, see the following motion to dismiss:

http://www.pawalaw.com/assets/docs/motion-to-dismiss-by-electric-utilities.pdf

This motion was subsequently granted without prejudice, with the plaintiffs given the right to refile in state court:

The parties are presently before the Court on various Defendants’ motions to dismiss for lack of subject matter jurisdiction, pursuant to Federal Rules of Civil Procedure 12(b)(1) and 12(b)(6). In their Rule 12(b)(1) motions, Defendants contend that Plaintiffs’ claims are not justiciable under the political question doctrine, and that Plaintiffs otherwise lack standing under Article III of the United States Constitution. Having read and considered the papers filed in connection with this matter, and being fully informed, the Court hereby GRANTS Defendants’ motions to dismiss for lack of jurisdiction. The Court, in its discretion, finds this matter suitable for resolution without oral argument. See Fed.R.Civ.P. 78(b).

http://www.greatlakeslaw.org/files/kivalina_v_exxonmobi_decisionl.pdf

But the principles are the same; to refile there will simply result in another dismissal. See here for precedent:

http://www.bdlaw.com/assets/attachments/Comer_v_Murphy_Oil_opinion.pdf

 

[Al68]

I don't agree. The act of buying a product generates no emissions. Only the act of producing the product does.

That's just not true in the sense relevant here. People buying the product causes it to be produced. An analogy: The act of hiring a hitman doesn't kill anyone, the act of the hitman pulling the trigger does. But both are equally responsible.

The only way that a buyer is not just as responsible as the seller or "maker" of a product or service is if the seller or maker knows something the buyer doesn't.