Cardinalities of any two sets are comparable.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the cardinalities of any two sets and the use of Zorn's Lemma to demonstrate the existence of injections between them. Participants explore theoretical aspects, mathematical reasoning, and proof strategies related to set theory and cardinality.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose using Zorn's Lemma to show that there exists an injection from one set to another.
  • One participant questions the validity of injections by providing a counterexample with specific sets, suggesting that no injection exists in that case.
  • Another participant argues that there is indeed an injection from the smaller set to the larger set in the counterexample provided.
  • Several participants discuss the construction of a partially ordered set of bijective maps and the conditions necessary for applying Zorn's Lemma.
  • One participant suggests that starting with one set and removing elements from the other could lead to establishing a bijection or an injection.
  • Another participant presents a detailed proof involving ordered triples and claims to show that a maximal element can be found using Zorn's Lemma.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about the completeness of their proofs and seek clarification on the use of pairs versus triples in their arguments.
  • There is a suggestion that including the "onto" clause in the definition of the set of triples might simplify the proof.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit a mix of agreement and disagreement. While some support the use of Zorn's Lemma and the proposed proofs, others challenge the existence of injections in specific cases, leading to a lack of consensus on the matter.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the proofs may depend on specific definitions and assumptions, and there are unresolved mathematical steps regarding the completeness of the arguments presented.

caffeinemachine
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Let $X$ and $Y$ be any two sets. Show by using Zorn's Lemma (or anything equivalent to it) that there is an injection of one into the other.
 
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caffeinemachine said:
Let $X$ and $Y$ be any two sets. Show by using Zorn's Lemma (or anything equivalent to it) that there is an injection of one into the other.

Erm... suppose we pick X={1,2} and Y={1}, then there is no injection...? :confused:
 
caffeinemachine said:
Let $X$ and $Y$ be any two sets. Show by using Zorn's Lemma (or anything equivalent to it) that there is an injection of one into the other.
Let $\mathcal{F}$ be the set of bijective maps of the form $f:D(f)\to R(f)$ with domain $D(f)\subseteq X$ and range $R(f)\subseteq Y$, made into a partially ordered set by the relation $f\prec g\; \Longleftrightarrow\; \{D(f)\subset D(g) \text{ and } g(x) = f(x)\; \forall x\in D(f)\}$. Show that $\mathcal{F}$ satisfies the conditions for Zorn's Lemma, and then check that a maximal element is either an injection from $X$ to $Y$ or the inverse of an injection from $Y$ to $X$.
 
I think the idea is to start with one of them, say, X and use the axiom of choice to remove elements of Y one by one, for each element of X. If you remove them all and use all the elements of X, it's a bijection. If you only remove part of Y with all the elements of X, the choice function is an injection. Finaly, if you remove all the elements of Y, but don't use all X, the inverse of that choice function is an injection of Y into X.
 
I like Serena said:
Erm... suppose we pick X={1,2} and Y={1}, then there is no injection...? :confused:

Yes there is.. from Y to X ;)
 
Just to point out that ModusPonens's suggestion and mine are essentially the same. In both cases, the idea is to pair off elements of $X$ with elements of $Y$ until you run out of further choices (in one space or the other). As usual in such proofs, you can make the argument rigorous by using either Zorn or Choice, according to taste.
 
I like Serena said:
Erm... suppose we pick X={1,2} and Y={1}, then there is no injection...? :confused:
I think there is a trivial injection from $Y$ to $X$. Take $f:Y\to X$ as $f(1)=1$.
 
Opalg said:
Let $\mathcal{F}$ be the set of bijective maps of the form $f: D(f)\to R(f)$ with domain $D(f)\subseteq X$ and range $R(f)\subseteq Y$, made into a partially ordered set by the relation $f\prec g\; \Longleftrightarrow\; \{D(f)\subset D(g) \text{ and } g(x) = f(x)\; \forall x\in D(f)\}$. Show that $\mathcal{F}$ satisfies the conditions for Zorn's Lemma, and then check that a maximal element is either an injection from $X$ to $Y$ or the inverse of an injection from $Y$ to $X$.

I started out this way myself but I could not complete the proof. May be I am missing something simple. Here's my proof:

Let $\mathcal C$ be the collection of all ordered triples $(A,B,f)$ such that $A\subseteq X, B\subseteq Y$ and that $f$ is an injection from $A$ to $B$. We order $\mathcal C$ in the folloewing way. Let $(A_1,B_1,f_1)$ and $(A_2,B_2,f_2)$ be two elements of $\mathcal C$. Then we write $(A_1,B_1,f_1)\leq(A_2,B_2,f_2)$ if $A_1\subseteq A_2$, $B_1\subseteq B_2$ and the restriction of $f_2$ to $A_1$ is same as $f_1$. Now let $C=\{(A_\alpha,B_\alpha,f_\alpha)\}_{\alpha\in J}$ be any chain in $\mathcal C$, where $J$ is an index set. Define $A=\bigcup_{\alpha\in J}A_\alpha$ and $B=\bigcup_{\alpha\in J}B_\alpha$. Consider a function $f:A\to B$ defined as $f(a)=f_\alpha(a)$ if $a\in A_\alpha$.

Claim 1: $f$ is well defined.
Proof: Let $a\in A$ be such that $a\in A_\alpha$ and $a\in A_\beta$. We need to show that $f_\alpha(a)=f_\beta(a)$. Since $C$ is a chian, WLOG assume that $A_\alpha\subseteq A_\beta$. Then the restriction of $f_\beta$ to $A_\alpha$ is same as $f_\alpha$. Thus $f_\beta(a)=f_\alpha(a)$ and the claim is settled.

Claim 2: $(A,B,f)$ is in $\mathcal C$.
Proof: Clearly $A\subseteq X$ and $B\subseteq Y$. We just need to show that $f$ is an injection. Let $f(p)=f(q)$ for some $p,q\in A$. Say $p\in A_\gamma$ and $q\in A_\delta$. WLOG assume that $A_\gamma\subseteq A_\delta$. Then $f(p)=f_\delta(p)=f_\delta(q)\Rightarrow p=q$ by the injectivity of $f_\delta$.

Claim 3: $(A,B,f)$ is an upper bound of $C$.
Proof: Let $(A_\alpha,B_\alpha,f_\alpha)$ be any element of $C$. Clearly $A_\alpha\subseteq A$ and $B_\alpha\subseteq B$. We need to show that the restriction of $f$ to $A_\alpha$ is same as $f_\alpha$. But this is evident by the definition of $f$ and hecne the claim is settled.

Now by Zorn's Lemma, $\mathcal C$ has a maximal element.
Say the maximal element is $(A_0,B_0,f_0)$. If $A_0=X$ then we are done. So assume $A_0\neq X$. Now if $B_0\neq Y$ then we can easily find an element in $\mathcal C$ which is greater than $(A_0,B_0,f_0)$ and we would run into a contradiction. Thus $B_0=Y$. From here its not easy to see that $f_0^{-1}:Y\to X$ is an injection and the proof is complete.
 
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caffeinemachine said:
$\vdots$

Now by Zorn's Lemma, $\mathcal C$ has a maximal element.
Say the maximal element is $(A_0,B_0,f_0)$. If $A_0=X$ then we are done. So assume $A_0\neq X$. Now if $B_0\neq Y$ then we can easily find an element in $\mathcal C$ which is greater than $(A_0,B_0,f_0)$ and we would run into a contradiction. Thus $B_0=Y$. From here its not easy to see that $f_0^{-1}:Y\to X$ is an injection and the proof is complete.
I think you need to define $\mathcal C$ from the start to consist of triples $(A,B,f)$ such that $A\subseteq X$, $B\subseteq Y$ and that $f$ is an injection from $A$ onto $B$. (You will need to check that this surjective property is preserved by upper bounds of chains.) Then if $(A_0,B_0,f_0)$ satisfies $B_0=Y$, that means that $f_0$ is a bijection from $A_0$ onto $Y$, and so $f_0^{-1}$ is a bijection from $Y$ onto $A_0\subseteq X$.
 
  • #10
Opalg said:
I think you need to define $\mathcal C$ from the start to consist of triples $(A,B,f)$ such that $A\subseteq X$, $B\subseteq Y$ and that $f$ is an injection from $A$ onto $B$. (You will need to check that this surjective property is preserved by upper bounds of chains.) Then if $(A_0,B_0,f_0)$ satisfies $B_0=Y$, that means that $f_0$ is a bijection from $A_0$ onto $Y$, and so $f_0^{-1}$ is a bijection from $Y$ onto $A_0\subseteq X$.

I guess including the "onto" clause will simplify the proof a bit. I have not checked the details though.

I think my proof is correct too. Isn't it?

Also, can you give some details of your proof in which you don't require triples but only pairs which seems to be considerably simpler than mine.
 
  • #11
caffeinemachine said:
I guess including the "onto" clause will simplify the proof a bit. I have not checked the details though.

I think my proof is correct too. Isn't it?

Also, can you give some details of your proof in which you don't require triples but only pairs which seems to be considerably simpler than mine.
Your proof is fine – I was just tying up the loose ends where you said that you could not complete the proof.

I don't see what you mean by using pairs rather than triples. My proof used the triples $(f,D(f),R(f))$, just like yours. And the only reason that my proof "seems to be considerably simpler" is that I left out all the details for you to fill in, which you have done.
 
  • #12
Opalg said:
Your proof is fine – I was just tying up the loose ends where you said that you could not complete the proof.

I don't see what you mean by using pairs rather than triples. My proof used the triples $(f,D(f),R(f))$, just like yours. And the only reason that my proof "seems to be considerably simpler" is that I left out all the details for you to fill in, which you have done.
Oh. Now I see. Actually this problem is there in Simmon's 'Introduction to Topology and Modern Analysis' in which the author has given a hint which just uses pairs and not triples and I still don't know how to do it on those lines.

Anyway, thanks for taking part in this challenge thread. Your posts are invaluable.
 

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