Cepheid Variables in Distant Galaxies

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the use of Cepheid variables as distance indicators for galaxies, particularly in the context of the universe's expansion and the potential effects on their observed periodicity. Participants explore the implications of distance, time dilation, and the limitations of current observational capabilities.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how Cepheid variables can provide accurate distance measurements if galaxies are receding at increasing speeds, suggesting that periods of these stars should lengthen over time.
  • Another participant asserts that Cepheids cannot be seen in distant galaxies and that supernovae Ia are the standard candles for such measurements.
  • A hypothetical scenario is presented where a Cepheid variable located 5 billion light years away might have a noticeably longer period, raising concerns about the reliability of distance measurements.
  • It is noted that periodicity is a significant variable once the type of Cepheid is identified, which can be determined by its spectrum.
  • One participant expresses confusion about the applicability of Cepheids as standard candles and suggests that their periodicity might be affected by the expansion of space.
  • Another participant claims that a Cepheid 4 billion light years away would exhibit time dilation effects, although current detection capabilities limit observations to about 30 megaparsecs.
  • There is a discussion about whether the observed longer periods should be attributed to time dilation or the increasing distance of the light source emitting photons.
  • A reference is made to time dilation in high redshift supernova studies, with a basic rule provided for expected time dilation effects.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of Cepheid variables as standard candles for distant galaxies, with some asserting limitations and others suggesting potential effects of time dilation. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the impact of cosmic expansion on the observed properties of Cepheid variables.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in current observational capabilities, noting that Cepheids can only be detected up to about 30 megaparsecs, which restricts meaningful measurements related to time dilation due to expansion.

Ty1erC
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I'm trying to fully understand how Cepheid variables are able to give us accurate distance approximations to galaxies. If these galaxies are receding away from us at ever-increasing speeds, wouldn't we notice the variable stars' periods getting longer and longer over time? How can we accurately know these periods and thereby know the stars' luminosities?

Some aspect of this has to be going over my head.
 
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There are two problems with your assertions.

Cepheids can't be seen in far distant galaxies. Standard candles for distant galaxies are supernovae Ia.

Although the universe is expanding, the rate is too slow, compared to ordinary Earth time, to see any change in the periods.
 
Well, let's assume we have a telescope big enough to see an individual cepheid variable about 5 billion light years away. Would it's period be noticeably longer than it should be compared to a cepheid variable in our own galaxy? Enough to throw off our distance measurements significantly I mean, since we can't really tell just from observing the star whether it's period is longer or shorter than it "should be" since we don't know the exact mass and composition of the star.
 
Periodicity is the only significant variable once you know the type of Cepheid being observed - which is rather easily determined by its spectrum.
 
Chronos said:
Periodicity is the only significant variable once you know the type of Cepheid being observed - which is rather easily determined by its spectrum.

Knowing its spectrum, would said cepheid variable at 4 billion LY from us show a slower periodicity than a similar one in our galaxy?
 
it was my assumption that cepheids could be used 'across the board' as a standard candle that was causing my confusion. thanks.

but if they could be used, i would presume that the periodicity would be seriously affected by the expansion of space. the further away a galaxy is, the faster it is racing away from us. again, i could be wrong.
 
The periodicity of a cepheid 4 billion light years distant would definitely show time dilation effects. Of course that is far beyond our present detection capabilities. Cepheids can only be detected out to about 30 mpc at present. That is too close to yield any meaningful measurement of time dilation due to expansion.
 
Chronos said:
The periodicity of a cepheid 4 billion light years distant would definitely show time dilation effects. Of course that is far beyond our present detection capabilities. Cepheids can only be detected out to about 30 mpc at present. That is too close to yield any meaningful measurement of time dilation due to expansion.

Outstanding! I always wondered if your normal time dilation rules applied at the cosmological scale. Without knowing the actual math it gets a little confusing when you have to piece together things from 15 difference sources.
 
would it be correct to call the effect time dilation? the galaxy in question isn't flying away from us through space, but space it self is expanding. wouldn't the longer period just be a result of the 'light source' emitting its photons from an increasingly greater distance?
 
  • #10
Time dilation of light curves is definitely a factor in high z supernova studies. The basic rule is 1+z gives you the expected amount of time dilation. This was corroborated by, among others, Goldhaber, Riess and Perlmutter in their papers of the late 90's.
 

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