Chain Rule, Differentials "Trick"

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of the chain rule and the manipulation of differentials in the context of derivatives and integrals, particularly focusing on higher-order derivatives and the use of Leibniz notation. Participants explore the implications of treating differentials as fractions and the potential limitations of such approaches.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant discusses deriving the derivative of y=sin(x^2) with respect to x^2 and explores the implications for higher-order derivatives.
  • Another participant mentions that the approach is an application of the Riemann-Stieltjes integral rather than a purely differential concept.
  • A different participant critiques the treatment of Leibniz notation as a fraction, arguing that it can lead to confusion, especially with second derivatives.
  • One participant provides a detailed explanation of the legitimate workings of separable differential equations and how the notation can be misleading when applied to second-order derivatives.
  • A participant acknowledges the potential misuse of Leibniz notation and reflects on their understanding of limits and derivatives, realizing the limitations of defining second-order differentials in the same way as first-order differentials.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of treating differentials as fractions, particularly in the context of higher-order derivatives. There is no consensus on the best approach to defining or manipulating second-order differentials.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the limitations of applying certain techniques to second-order derivatives and the potential for misunderstanding the nature of differentials in higher-order contexts.

paradoxymoron
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I was playing around with some simple differential equations earlier and I discovered something cool (at least for me).

Suppose you have y=sin(x^2) \Rightarrow \frac{dy}{dx}=2xcos(x^2)
What if, instead of taking the derivative with respect to x, I want to take the derivative with respect to x^2, where a simple substitution might help? u(x)=x^2 \Rightarrow \frac{du}{dx}=2x \Rightarrow du=2xdx y=sin(u) \Rightarrow \frac{dy}{du}=cos(u) \Rightarrow \frac{dy}{dx^2}=cos(x^2) If you undo the substitution for both instances of u, you arrive at the derivative with respect to x \frac{dy}{dx^2}=\frac{dy}{2xdx}=cos(u^2) \Rightarrow \frac{dy}{dx}=2xcos(x^2)

Now, I understand this result is just an application of the chain rule, but, I decided to use it on integrals. Which turns out great because this is just an application of integration by parts. \int dy=\int 2xcos(x^2)dx=\int cos(u)du=\int cos(x^2)dx^2

Now, my question is, is it possible to apply this to derivatives of higher order? Here is my approach by example. \frac{d^2y}{dx^2}=6x \int d^2y=\int 6xdx^2,~~~~~~~dx^2=2xdx \int d^2y=\int 6x(2xdx)

In analogy to stating \int dx^2=\int 2xdx, how would i write \int d^2y ~~~~ ?
 
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paradoxymoron said:
Now, I understand this result is just an application of the chain rule, but, I decided to use it on integrals. Which turns out great because this is just an application of integration by parts. \int dy=\int 2xcos(x^2)dx=\int cos(u)du=\int cos(x^2)dx^2

It's an application of the Riemann-Stieltjes integral.
It's not really a differential thing.
 
pwsnafu said:
It's an application of the Riemann-Stieltjes integral.
It's not really a differential thing.
I read the article to the best of my understanding and I didn't notice anything that could help me write \int d^2y explicitly so I could compute the integral using only one step of anti-differentiation (rather than two, in the case of second-order derivatives).
 
Last edited:
The trick that they teach you in freshman calculus and then again in DiffEQ where you take a separable DE ##\frac{dy}{dx}=f(x)g(y)## and treat ##\frac{dy}{dx}## like a ratio of differentials so that the equation can be rewritten ##\frac{dy}{g(y)}=f(x)dx## is an abuse of notation. It works (in the sense that you get a correct answer) in that particular situation, and in some others. But in general, treating the Leibniz notation like it's a fraction will get you in trouble if you don't really know what you're doing.

In the case of the second derivative, ##\frac{d^2y}{dx^2}##, it most definitely cannot be treated like a fraction. Furthermore, you have conflated ##d(x^2)## with what "should" be (if it were actually a valid step) ##(dx)^2##.

For what it's worth, here is the legitimate working of the general separable DE;

Given ##\frac{dy}{dx}=f(x)g(y)## has a solution ##y=u(x)##, we have ##u'(x)=f(x)g\left(u(x)\right)##. Whenever ##g## is nonzero, ##\frac{1}{g\left(u(x)\right)}u'(x)=f(x)##. On any interval ##[x_0,x_1]## on which the solution is valid, we have $$\int_{x_0}^{x_1}\frac{1}{g\left(u(x)\right)}u'(x)\ dx = \int_{x_0}^{x_1}f(x)\ dx$$ Using the method of integration by substitution on the LHS gives $$\int_{w_0}^{w_1}\frac{1}{g\left(w\right)}\ dw = \int_{x_0}^{x_1}f(x)\ dx$$ where ##w_i=u(x_i)## for ##i=1,2##.

And this looks a lot like the equation ##\int\frac{1}{g(y)}\ dy=\int f(x)\ dx## that you get using the standard trick. So treating ##\frac{dy}{dx}## like a fraction works in this case.

If you were to try and apply this approach to a second order separable DE (which is a misnomer) like ##\frac{d^2y}{dx^2}=f(x)g(y)##, you'd get to the equation $$\int_{x_0}^{x_1}\frac{1}{g\left(u(x)\right)}u''(x)\ dx = \int_{x_0}^{x_1}f(x)\ dx$$ and (hopefully) realize that the method of substitution does not apply here.

Also, the Leibniz notation ##\frac{d^ny}{dx^n}## comes from the notation ##\frac{d}{dx}## of the differential operator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_operator). ##\frac{d^n}{dx^n}=(\frac{d}{dx})^n## is kinda like shorthand for "do that differentiation thing ##n## times". So ##\frac{d^ny}{dx^n}=\frac{d^n}{dx^n}[y]## is notation for "do that differentiation thing to ##y## ##n## times" or, in the case of the LHS, "the result of having done that differentiation thing to ##y## ##n## times".
 
@gopher_p

Thanks for your reply! I always knew that Leibniz's notation was somewhat of needed abuse. I think my problem was that my Calculus classes did not cover the Epsilon-Delta definition of limit (and in turn, the limit nature of the derivative) in detail, so I got too used to the beauty the notation can give. I just thought that you could define a second order differential ##d^2y## in the same way you can with ordinary differentials ##df(x)=f'(x)dx##. I guess this is not possible. Your reply made me realize what I was doing wrong. Thanks again!
 

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