Challenging the Role of Photons in Explaining Light's Particle Behavior

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the role of photons in explaining the particle behavior of light, particularly in the context of special relativity and quantum mechanics. Participants explore whether photons are necessary to account for phenomena such as the photoelectric effect and Compton scattering, while also questioning the implications of treating photons as fundamental entities in light's behavior.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the necessity of photons as intermediaries for explaining light's particle aspects, suggesting that concepts like "zero path length" could suffice without invoking massless energy bundles.
  • Others argue that photons are essential for discussing specific phenomena such as the photoelectric effect and Compton effect, which are empirical proofs of light's quantization.
  • A participant notes that special relativity does not allow for inertial frames moving at the speed of light, complicating the discussion of what a photon "sees" in terms of time and distance.
  • One participant highlights that the Standard Model of particle physics describes photons as a consequence of symmetries in physical laws, raising questions about the foundational role of photons in modern physics.
  • Concerns are raised about the lack of non-photon formulations to explain complex phenomena like angle-resolved photoemission and the anti-bunding phenomenon.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the conceptualization of photons, describing them as "fantastical" and questioning their necessity in explaining light's behavior.
  • There is a call for exact references to support claims made about the role of photons and the application of Lorentz transformations in describing light phenomena.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the necessity of photons in explaining light's particle behavior. Multiple competing views remain, with some advocating for the photon model and others challenging its validity.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include unresolved assumptions regarding the nature of photons, the applicability of Lorentz transformations in different reference frames, and the lack of comprehensive non-photon explanations for certain experimental phenomena.

  • #61
Faradave said:
With Frame c a relativistic inertial reference frame (RIRF), what physical problem arises from your lack of satisfactory transforms?
Without the transforms "frame c" is not even clearly defined, and the form of the laws of physics in it are completely unknown. No experimental predictions may be made and the results of experiments cannot be compared to their expected values.
 
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  • #62
DaleSpam said:
Without the transforms "frame c" is not even clearly defined...
OK. But isn’t it true that you have no problem with Frame<c, even with v very close c, where path length may contract down to a Planck unit? For all we know, that is sufficiently close for “contact” - transfer of energy and momentum or even annihilation. So I've given you a, "renormalization solution". I've redefined "contact" so that it exists in a Frame<c that we can all live with.

I have no problem with that. I just feel that pinholes offer a much more tangible explanation for the particle aspects of light than “photons”. Everywhere you have a photon impact, I have a "real contact".

The difference is that pinholes predict annihilations with light between electron and positron and photons don’t. Pinholes also offer equally tangible explanations for many other phenomena where we only have descriptions now. And the wave aspects of pinholes are not mutually exclusive, the way duality is.
 
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  • #63
Physics Forums Rules,

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=5374

in part, say
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