China Eastern 737 Crash: What Caused the Unusual Cruise Phase Tragedy?

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    China Crash
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the crash of a China Eastern Airlines 737-800 during the cruise phase of flight, which is typically considered the safest part of a flight. Participants explore potential causes for the crash, including mechanical failures, human factors, and the implications of the flight data observed during the incident.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note the unusual nature of the crash occurring during the cruise phase, suggesting that typical scenarios for high-altitude crashes may not apply.
  • There is speculation about potential causes such as runaway trim, intentional acts, crew incapacitation, and catastrophic equipment failure.
  • Some argue that the intact nature of the fuselage rules out certain causes like explosive decompression or a bomb, while others question the completeness of the information regarding the plane's integrity.
  • Participants discuss the implications of atmospheric conditions, foreign object damage, and human factors as contributing factors to flight safety.
  • There is a debate over the definition of a stall and whether the aircraft experienced one, with differing interpretations of flight data and its implications.
  • Some participants express concern about the impact of speculation on the pilots and their families, advocating for caution in discussing potential intentional acts without evidence.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the causes of the crash, with no consensus reached on any specific explanation or model. The discussion remains unresolved, with ongoing debate about the interpretation of flight data and the implications of various scenarios.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the lack of final reports and the uncertainty surrounding the condition of the aircraft post-crash. Participants acknowledge that many factors affecting flight safety remain unexamined or speculative.

Who May Find This Useful

Individuals interested in aviation safety, accident investigation, and the technical aspects of flight dynamics may find this discussion relevant.

  • #61
berkeman said:
They just found the Flight Data Recorder, 1.5m down in the dirt in the crater:
DaveE said:
Oof, that's got to be an awful job. Digging into a crater with 132 pulverized bodies mixed in.

Wait one. FDR mounted near tail? Ugh.
 
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  • #62
berkeman said:
Yeah, that PPE is not just to keep them from contaminating the crash site...
Not to go off topic, my father, while in the Marine Corps, when stationed in the Aleutian Islands had to investigate plane crashes. He told me stories. The smell, as there was usually fire involved, was one that he never forgot.
 
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  • #63
Klystron said:
Wait one. FDR mounted near tail? Ugh.
Yes. https://www.spoonfeeding.in/2011/03/whats-black-box.html

"Another factor important to the survivability of the black boxes is their installation in the tail of the aircraft. The exact location often varies depending on the plane, but the FDR and CVR are usually placed near the galley, in the aft cargo hold, or in the tail cone. The recorders are stored in the tail since this is usually the last part of the aircraft to impact in an accident. The entire front portion of the plane acts like a crush zone that helps to decelerate the tail more slowly."

But my favorite part:
"Current regulations require the black boxes to survive an impact of 3,400 g's for up to 6.5 milliseconds. This rapid deceleration is equivalent to slowing from a speed of 310 miles per hour (500 km/h) to a complete stop in a distance of just 18 inches (45 cm). This requirement is tested by firing the CSMU from an air cannon to demonstrate the device can withstand an impact force at least 3,400 times its own weight. The black boxes must also survive a penetration test during which a steel pin dropped from a height of 10 ft (3 m) impacts the CSMU at its most vulnerable point with a force of 500 pounds (2,225 N). In addition, a static crush test is conducted to demonstrate that all sides of the CSMU can withstand a pressure of 5,000 pounds per square inch (350 kg/cm2) for five minutes. The fire resistance of the CSMU is further tested by exposing it to a temperature of 2,000F (1,100C) for up to an hour. The device is also required to survive after lying in smoldering wreckage for ten hours at a temperature of 500F (260C)."

Holy c#$@, I thought the satellite stuff I did had high g requirements; not even remotely close to this! It would be really interesting to talk to the MEs that did these designs.
 
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  • #64
dlgoff said:
Not to go off topic, my father, while in the Marine Corps, when stationed in the Aleutian Islands had to investigate plane crashes. He told me stories. The smell, as there was usually fire involved, was one that he never forgot.
Yeah, I've smelled dead bodies, and burned bodies. Very difficult triggers.
 
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  • #65
The orange "black box" was invented in Australia.
 
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  • #66
Well, the latest update is pretty disappointing. If true, it sounds like the data and voice recorders are so damaged that they have not been able to recover useful information from them (so far)...

https://abc7news.com/no-abnormalities-found-in-china-plane-crash-investigators/11773222/

The "black boxes" -- the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder -- that can tell exactly what was going on aboard the aircraft were badly damaged in the crash, authorities said, and investigators are still trying to recover data from them to determine what happened.

1650549130992.png
 
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  • #67
berkeman said:
Well, the latest update is pretty disappointing. If true, it sounds like the data and voice recorders are so damaged that they have not been able to recover useful information from them (so far)...
Those flight recorders are an amazing example of engineering but there are limits, those limits would have been put to a real acid test in that crash. I don't know beans about recovering damaged digital data but if they are getting "all systems normal" that's got to be cr@p. considering radar data as well as the video I've seen those recorders would have to be screaming with alerts. I'm guessing "No Abnormalities" got lost in translation somewhere or there just isn't anything to recover. :frown:
 
  • #68
Oldman too said:
Those flight recorders are an amazing example of engineering but there are limits, those limits would have been put to a real acid test in that crash. I don't know beans about recovering damaged digital data but if they are getting "all systems normal" that's got to be cr@p. considering radar data as well as the video I've seen those recorders would have to be screaming with alerts. I'm guessing "No Abnormalities" got lost in translation somewhere or there just isn't anything to recover. :frown:
I'm pretty sure the "No abnormalities" thing is for the externally accessible data -- radar tracking and comms before the deviation in the flight.

At least the NTSB seems to be tied into this investigation, so I'm hopeful that there will be full disclosure of whatever data they can find.

I have a personal theory about the 3rd pilot who was allowed into the cockpit, but per the PF rules on speculation, I will hold my tongue for now. Very sorry for the terrible loss of life...
 
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  • #72
Arjan82 said:
Actually, wall street journal does report about flight data:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-...ntional-nosedive-11652805097?mod=hp_lead_pos2
WSJ behind paywall when I attempt to read article. Reuters refers to the WSJ reporting with additional interviews.
One source told Reuters that investigators were looking at whether the crash was a "voluntary" act involving crew inputs to the controls, though that does not necessarily mean the dive was intentional.

The cockpit voice recorder was damaged during the crash and it is unclear whether investigators have been able to retrieve any information from it.
 
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  • #73
Klystron said:
WSJ behind paywall when I attempt to read article. Reuters refers to the WSJ reporting with additional interviews.
The first couple of paragraphs and the summary statement under the headline succinctly state the US position:

Summary: Flight data suggests that someone in the cockpit of the Boeing 737-800 that crashed in March put the aircraft into a near-vertical descent, according to a preliminary U.S. assessment.

Article: Flight data indicates someone in the cockpit intentionally crashed a China Eastern jet earlier this year, according to people familiar with U.S. officials’ preliminary assessment of what led to the accident.

The Boeing 737-800 was cruising at high altitude when it suddenly pitched into a near-vertical descent, plummeting into a mountain at extreme speed. Data from a black box recovered in the crash suggests inputs to the controls pushed the plane into the fatal dive, these people said.
 
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  • #75
Hmm interesting, if I use my own link above, I now also see the paywall. But earlier I didn't. Apparently you have an X amount of articles you are allowed to read in Y amount of time.
 
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