Circle is a set of a discontinuities?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the continuity of the characteristic function of geometric shapes, specifically a ball and a rectangle, and the implications of these properties on integration. Participants explore the concept of a circle as a 'set of discontinuities' and seek clarification on the definitions and behaviors of these functions in different contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the characteristic function of a ball in Rn is continuous everywhere except on its surface, seeking clarification on the term 'set of discontinuities.'
  • Another participant explains that the characteristic function is defined as 1 for points inside the set and 0 for points outside, noting the discontinuity at the surface of the ball.
  • A participant expresses confusion about the characteristic function of a rectangle, questioning why it is not considered discontinuous.
  • Further clarification is provided that the characteristic function of a rectangle is indeed discontinuous at its boundary points, contrasting it with a constant function defined over the rectangle.
  • One participant suggests that while the rectangle has an infinite set of discontinuous points, integration can still occur using a constant function defined within the rectangle.
  • A question is raised about the possibility of using polar coordinates to define a circle in a manner similar to the rectangle, implying that Cartesian coordinates may complicate the definition.
  • A later reply emphasizes the distinction between a ball and its surface (sphere), explaining that the characteristic function behaves differently at these boundaries and is discontinuous on the sphere.
  • It is noted that the characteristic function of a rectangle is also discontinuous at its boundary, similar to the sphere, as the limit approaches 0 from outside while the function value is 1 on the boundary.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit some agreement on the definitions of the characteristic functions and their discontinuities, but there remains confusion and disagreement regarding the application of these concepts to different geometric shapes and the implications for integration.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the definitions of terms like 'ball,' 'sphere,' and 'rectangle,' and how these relate to the continuity of their characteristic functions. The discussion also highlights the complexity of integrating over different geometric domains.

chipotleaway
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Why is the characteristic function* of a ball in Rn continuous everywhere except on its surface?My lecturer said that a circle is a 'set of discontinuities' - what exactly does that mean?

(some context: we're looking at how we can integrate over a ball. Previously we've only looked at Riemann integration over rectangles - for that, he also introduced the theory by first defining integrals for the characteristic function over rectangles).

*The characteristic function of any set in Rn was defined to be 1 if x was a point inside the set and 0 if t was outside
 
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The characteristic function of set A is defined as "f(x)= 1 if x is in A, 0 other wise". It should be obvious that if we take x to be a point on the surface of a ball, then the limit of the characteristic function is 1 as we approach x along a line inside the ball and 0 as we approach along a line outside the ball.
 
I'm not sure I understand - what about a rectangle? Why is the characteristic function over that not discontinuous?
 
chipotleaway said:
Why is the characteristic function* of a ball in Rn continuous everywhere except on its surface?My lecturer said that a circle is a 'set of discontinuities' - what exactly does that mean?

Exactly what it says: it's a set of points at which a function fails to be continuous.

(some context: we're looking at how we can integrate over a ball. Previously we've only looked at Riemann integration over rectangles - for that, he also introduced the theory by first defining integrals for the characteristic function over rectangles).

*The characteristic function of any set in Rn was defined to be 1 if x was a point inside the set and 0 if t was outside

chipotleaway said:
I'm not sure I understand - what about a rectangle? Why is the characteristic function over that not discontinuous?

It is discontinuous. But consider the following:

The function f: \mathbb{R^2} \to \mathbb{R} defined by <br /> f(x,y) = \begin{cases} 1 &amp; \mbox{if $x \in [a,b]$ and $y \in [c,d]$} \\<br /> 0 &amp; \mbox{otherwise} \end{cases}<br /> is discontinuous at (for example) (b,d), because f(b + \epsilon, d +\delta) = 0 for every \epsilon &gt; 0 and \delta &gt; 0.

The function g : [a,b] \times [c,d] \to \mathbb{R} defined by <br /> g(x,y) = 1<br /> is continuous because it is constant.

If we integrate f over [a,b]\times[c,d] then we don't care what f does outside that rectangle, so we may as well be dealing with the continuous function g.
 
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So then the rectangle is an infinite set of discontinuous points as well, but we can integrate over it because we just use g(x,y) instead?

Why can't we do the same thing with a circle by changing to polar coordinates so that the domain can be defined like the rectangle in Cartesian? (I think we can't do it in Cartesian because the domain is 'harder' to define in that system)
 
Perhaps the problem is that you aren't clear on what these words you are using mean! A "sphere" is the outer surface of a "ball", not the ball itself. The "characteristic function" of a sphere is 1 on the surface of a ball and 0 otherwise. If you approach a point on the surface of a ball along, say the center of the ball, the characteristic function is always 0. So the limit is 0. But the value of the characteristic function is 1. That is why the sphere is a "set of continuities" for the characteristic function on it. The characteristic function of a sphere is discontinuous exactly on that sphere, continuous everywhere of the sphere.

Similarly, a "rectangle" in two dimensions is the boundary of a "box". It consists of the four lines forming the boundary, not the interior. The "characteristic function" of the rectangle is 1 on those four lines, 0 off. If you approach any point on the rectangle along a line from an exterior or interior point, the characteristic function is 0 at every point so the limit is 0 but the characteristic function has value 1. So the characteristic function is discontinuous precisely at every point on the rectangle.
 

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