Circular Membrane: Solving $u_{tt} = c^2\nabla^2u$ with Bessel's Equation

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    Circular Membrane
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around solving the wave equation $u_{tt} = c^2\nabla^2u$ for a circular membrane using Bessel's equation. Participants explore the implications of initial conditions, the nature of coefficients in the series solution, and the properties of Bessel functions in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant derives the Helmholtz equation from the wave equation and expresses the solution in terms of Bessel functions.
  • Another participant questions whether the coefficients $A_{mn}$ and $B_{mn}$ must be zero based on the equality of two series involving Bessel functions.
  • Some participants argue that the condition $A_{mn} \cos(m \theta) + B_{mn} \sin(m \theta) = 0$ does not necessarily imply that both coefficients are zero, suggesting that specific values of $\theta$ could lead to this conclusion.
  • A later reply emphasizes that having two equal infinite series does not imply the individual terms are equal, countering the idea that $A_{mn} = B_{mn} = 0$ is the only solution.
  • Another participant suggests starting with the second initial condition to potentially simplify the problem of determining coefficients.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of the equality of the series for the coefficients $A_{mn}$ and $B_{mn}$. There is no consensus on whether these coefficients must be zero, indicating an unresolved debate on this aspect of the problem.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the nature of the solutions and the properties of Bessel functions, which may not be fully explored or agreed upon by all participants.

Dustinsfl
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$u_{tt} = c^2\nabla^2u$ where $\nabla^2 = \frac{1}{r}\frac{\partial }{\partial r}\left(r\frac{\partial}{\partial r}\right) + \frac{1}{r^2}\frac{\partial^2}{\partial\theta^2}$.
Suppose $u(r,\theta,t) = G(r,\theta)e^{i\omega t}$.
Then
$$
-\omega^2Ge^{i\omega t} = c^2\nabla^2Ge^{i\omega t}
$$
which leads to the Helmholtz equation $(\nabla^2G + k^2G = 0)$ where $k^2 = \frac{\omega^2}{c^2}$.
Let $G(r,\theta) = R(r)e^{\pm im\theta}$.
Then
$$
\left[\frac{1}{r}\frac{\partial}{\partial r}\left(r\frac{\partial}{\partial r}\right) + \frac{1}{r^2}\frac{\partial}{\partial r}\right]Re^{im\theta} + k^2Re^{im\theta} = 0
$$
which leads to
$$
r^2R'' + rR' + (k^2r^2 - m^2)R = 0\quad \text{(Bessel's equation)}.
$$
Therefore, $R(r) = \mathcal{J}_m(kr) = \sum\limits_{j = 0}^{\infty}\frac{(-1)^j}{(j!)^2(k + m)!}\left(\frac{kr}{2}\right)^{2j + m}$.
The circular membrane is of radius $a$ whose edges are fixed.
That is, $R(a) = \mathcal{J}_{mn}(k_{mn}a) = 0$.
Let $z_{mn}$ be the zeros of $J_{mn}$ and $z_{mn} = k_{mn}a\iff k_{mn} = \frac{z_{mn}}{a}$.
Then the form of the general solution is
\begin{alignat*}{3}
u(r,\theta,t) & = & \sum_{n = 1}^{\infty} \sum_{m = 0}^{ \infty} \mathcal{J}_{mn} \left(z_{mn}\frac{r}{a}\right) \left[A_{mn}\cos m\theta + B_{mn}\sin m\theta\right] \cos\left(z_{mn}\frac{ct}{a}\right)\\
& + & \sum_{n = 1}^{\infty} \sum_{m = 0}^{ \infty} \mathcal{J}_{mn} \left(z_{mn}\frac{r}{a}\right) \left[C_{mn}\cos m\theta + D_{mn}\sin m\theta\right] \sin\left(z_{mn}\frac{ct}{a}\right)
\end{alignat*}
Using the first initial condition, we have\begin{alignat*}{5}
u(r,\theta,0) & = & \sum_{n = 1}^{\infty} \sum_{m = 0}^{ \infty} \mathcal{J}_{mn} \left(z_{mn}\frac{r}{a}\right) \left[A_{mn}\cos m\theta + B_{mn}\sin m\theta\right] & = & 0
\end{alignat*}
How can I create a table of the eigenvalues for the Bessel equation in Mathematica?
Would it be
Code:
ClearAll["Global`*"]z = Table[N[BesselJZero[m, n]], {n, 1, 20}, {m, 0, 5}];
z // TableForm
{
 {2.40483, 3.83171, 5.13562, 6.38016, 7.58834, 8.77148},
 {5.52008, 7.01559, 8.41724, 9.76102, 11.0647, 12.3386},
 {8.65373, 10.1735, 11.6198, 13.0152, 14.3725, 15.7002},
 {11.7915, 13.3237, 14.796, 16.2235, 17.616, 18.9801},
 {14.9309, 16.4706, 17.9598, 19.4094, 20.8269, 22.2178},
 {18.0711, 19.6159, 21.117, 22.5827, 24.019, 25.4303},
 {21.2116, 22.7601, 24.2701, 25.7482, 27.1991, 28.6266},
 {24.3525, 25.9037, 27.4206, 28.9084, 30.371, 31.8117},
 {27.4935, 29.0468, 30.5692, 32.0649, 33.5371, 34.9888},
 {30.6346, 32.1897, 33.7165, 35.2187, 36.699, 38.1599},
 {33.7758, 35.3323, 36.8629, 38.3705, 39.8576, 41.3264},
 {36.9171, 38.4748, 40.0084, 41.5207, 43.0137, 44.4893},
 {40.0584, 41.6171, 43.1535, 44.6697, 46.1679, 47.6494},
 {43.1998, 44.7593, 46.298, 47.8178, 49.3204, 50.8072},
 {46.3412, 47.9015, 49.4422, 50.965, 52.4716, 53.963},
 {49.4826, 51.0435, 52.586, 54.1116, 55.6217, 57.1173},
 {52.6241, 54.1856, 55.7296, 57.2577, 58.7708, 60.2702},
 {55.7655, 57.3275, 58.873, 60.4032, 61.9192, 63.4221},
 {58.907, 60.4695, 62.0162, 63.5484, 65.067, 66.5729},
 {62.0485, 63.6114, 65.1593, 66.6932, 68.2142, 69.7229}}
\begin{alignat*}{5}
u(r,\theta,0) & = & 0 & & \\
u_t(r,\theta,0) & = & \delta(\mathbf{x} - \mathbf{x}_0) & = & \delta(r - r_0, \theta - \theta_0) \end{alignat*}
$$
\int_A\delta(\mathbf{x} - \mathbf{x}_0)f(r,\theta)dA = \int_0^{2\pi}\int_0^a\delta(r - r_0, \theta - \theta_0)f(r,\theta)rdrd\theta = f(\mathbf{x}_0)
$$
 
Last edited:
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$$
\sum_{n = 1}^{\infty} \sum_{m = 0}^{ \infty} \mathcal{J}_{mn}\left(z_{mn}\frac{r}{a}\right)A_{mn}\cos m\theta = - \sum_{n = 1}^{\infty} \sum_{m = 0}^{ \infty} \mathcal{J}_{mn}\left(z_{mn}\frac{r}{a}\right)B_{mn}\sin m\theta
$$
Does this imply that $A_{mn} = B_{mn} = 0$? That is my thought.
 
dwsmith said:
$$
\sum_{n = 1}^{\infty} \sum_{m = 0}^{ \infty} \mathcal{J}_{mn}\left(z_{mn}\frac{r}{a}\right)A_{mn}\cos m\theta = - \sum_{n = 1}^{\infty} \sum_{m = 0}^{ \infty} \mathcal{J}_{mn}\left(z_{mn}\frac{r}{a}\right)B_{mn}\sin m\theta
$$
Does this imply that $A_{mn} = B_{mn} = 0$? That is my thought.
Putting in my two cents:

Both sums are functions of \theta so the only time you could require that A_{mn} = B_{mn} = 0 would be when cos(m \theta ) = -sin(m \theta).

-Dan
 
topsquark said:
Putting in my two cents:

Both sums are functions of \theta so the only time you could require that A_{mn} = B_{mn} = 0 would be when cos(m \theta ) = -sin(m \theta).

-Dan

Does m being an integer help?
 
dwsmith said:
Does m being an integer help?
Ummm...Not sure what you're trying to say there?

We have the condition that
A_{mn}~cos(m \theta) + B_{mn}~sin(m \theta ) = 0

All I'm saying is that if we have
cos(m \theta) = - sin(m \theta )

tan(m \theta) = -1

etc, etc.
Only certain values of \theta will mandate that the coefficients are zero.

-Dan
 
topsquark said:
Ummm...Not sure what you're trying to say there?

We have the condition that
A_{mn}~cos(m \theta) + B_{mn}~sin(m \theta ) = 0

All I'm saying is that if we have
cos(m \theta) = - sin(m \theta )

tan(m \theta) = -1

etc, etc.
Only certain values of \theta will mandate that the coefficients are zero.

-Dan

Then I am at a loss on solving for the coefficients.
 
Would it be easier perhaps to start with the second initial condition?
If this is correct(below)
$$
C_{0n} = \frac{\int_0^a \int_0^{2\pi}r \delta(r - r_0,\theta - \theta_0) \mathcal{J}_{0n} \left(z_{0n}\frac{r}{a}\right)d\theta dr}{z_{0n}ac\pi\mathcal{J}_{1}^2(z_{0n})} = \frac{\mathcal{J}_{0n} \left(z_{0n}\frac{r_0}{a}\right)}{z_{0n}ac\pi \mathcal{J}_{1}^2(z_{0n})},
$$
$$
C_{mn} = \frac{2\int_0^a \int_0^{2\pi}r \delta(r - r_0,\theta - \theta_0) \mathcal{J}_{mn} \left(z_{mn}\frac{r}{a}\right)\cos m\theta d\theta dr}{z_{mn}ac\pi\mathcal{J}_{m + 1}^2(z_{mn})} = \frac{2\mathcal{J}_{mn} \left(z_{mn}\frac{r_0}{a}\right)\cos m\theta_0}{z_{mn}ac\pi\mathcal{J}_{m + 1}^2(z_{mn})}\quad m\neq 0,
$$
and
$$
D_{mn} = \frac{2\int_0^a \int_0^{2\pi}r \delta(r - r_0,\theta - \theta_0) \mathcal{J}_{mn} \left(z_{mn}\frac{r}{a}\right) \sin m\theta d\theta dr}{z_{mn}ac\pi \mathcal{J}_{m + 1}^2(z_{mn})} = \frac{2\mathcal{J}_{mn} \left(z_{mn}\frac{r_0}{a}\right)\sin m\theta_0}{z_{mn}ac\pi\mathcal{J}_{m + 1}^2(z_{mn})}.
$$
 
Since we have the double Bessel-Fourier series, A = B = 0 is the answer unless I am missing something I am sure it is 0.
 
dwsmith said:
$$
\sum_{n = 1}^{\infty} \sum_{m = 0}^{ \infty} \mathcal{J}_{mn}\left(z_{mn}\frac{r}{a}\right)A_{mn}\cos m\theta = - \sum_{n = 1}^{\infty} \sum_{m = 0}^{ \infty} \mathcal{J}_{mn}\left(z_{mn}\frac{r}{a}\right)B_{mn}\sin m\theta
$$
Does this imply that $A_{mn} = B_{mn} = 0$? That is my thought.

Hi dwsmith, :)

No. This does not imply that \(A_{mn} = B_{mn} = 0\). However \(A_{mn} = B_{mn} = 0\) is a trivial solution to,

\[\sum_{n = 1}^{\infty} \sum_{m = 0}^{ \infty} \mathcal{J}_{mn}\left(z_{mn}\frac{r}{a}\right)A_{mn}\cos m\theta = - \sum_{n = 1}^{\infty} \sum_{m = 0}^{ \infty} \mathcal{J}_{mn}\left(z_{mn}\frac{r}{a}\right)B_{mn}\sin m\theta\]

Note that if you have two infinite series \(\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}a_{n}\) and \(\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}b_{n}\) equal to one another means that the two series will converge to the same value not that \(a_{n}=b_{n}\).

\[\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}a_{n}=\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}b_{n} \not\Rightarrow a_{n}=b_{n}\]

Kind Regards,
Sudharka.
 
  • #10
Sudharaka said:
Hi dwsmith, :)

No. This does not imply that \(A_{mn} = B_{mn} = 0\). However \(A_{mn} = B_{mn} = 0\) is a trivial solution to,

\[\sum_{n = 1}^{\infty} \sum_{m = 0}^{ \infty} \mathcal{J}_{mn}\left(z_{mn}\frac{r}{a}\right)A_{mn}\cos m\theta = - \sum_{n = 1}^{\infty} \sum_{m = 0}^{ \infty} \mathcal{J}_{mn}\left(z_{mn}\frac{r}{a}\right)B_{mn}\sin m\theta\]

Note that if you have two infinite series \(\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}a_{n}\) and \(\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}b_{n}\) equal to one another means that the two series will converge to the same value not that \(a_{n}=b_{n}\).

\[\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}a_{n}=\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}b_{n} \not\Rightarrow a_{n}=b_{n}\]

Kind Regards,
Sudharka.

It is true because of
dwsmith said:
Since we have the double Bessel-Fourier series, A = B = 0 is the answer unless I am missing something I am sure it is 0.

See http://www.mathhelpboards.com/f13/integrating-delta-bessel-function-2655/ for the coefficients of the double Bessel-Fourier series.
 

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