Combination of Michelson/Morley and Time Dilation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the Michelson-Morley experiment and time dilation in the context of Special Relativity. Participants explore whether these two concepts are testing different phenomena or if they are fundamentally the same. The conversation includes theoretical considerations and implications for particle decay processes, particularly focusing on pions and their behavior in different inertial frames.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the Michelson-Morley experiment and time dilation experiments are testing different aspects of relativity or if they are essentially the same, citing the failure of the former to detect the ether and the confirmation of light-speed isotropy.
  • Another participant asserts that pions decay at the same rate in their own frame, independent of the observer's motion, suggesting that the decay process is unaffected by the observer's speed.
  • There is a discussion about the mean lifetime of mesons being influenced by relativistic effects when observed from different inertial systems, with one participant stating that the mean life does not depend on these effects, while another emphasizes that an outside observer's measurement may differ due to relativity.
  • One participant illustrates a hypothetical experiment involving pions created in a particle accelerator, questioning whether the direction of the pions affects their mean lifetime.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the influence of relativistic effects on particle decay and the relationship between the Michelson-Morley experiment and time dilation. There is no consensus on whether these concepts are fundamentally testing the same phenomenon or different aspects of relativity.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention the weak interaction as a factor in the lifetime of mesons and the implications of relativistic effects on measurements, but the discussion does not resolve the complexities of these relationships.

olli
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Hi,

I found myself trapped in a question on Special Relativity for 15 years now. Because of other new theories (LQG) the question became actual for me again. Maybe some of you can give me anwer on it: Is the combination of the experiments "Michelson and Morley experiment" and "Time Dilation" is testing something different, or is it just the same ?

1. The Michelson and Morley experiment intended to measure the velocity of the Earth relative to the “lumeniferous æther”. It failed, because SR prediction of Light-Speed Isotropy was correct.

2. Time Dilation experiments showed that particle lifetimes are showing relativistic time dilation.

As far as I know, the limited lifetime of e.g. mesons is caused by the weak interaction, a fundamental force. The mean life is depending on the relativic effects caused by the high speed. If the decay process is obeserved by a different inertial system, does the expectation of the mean life follow the Special Relativity ?

For illustration, please imagine the following new experiment:
- We create a lot of pions with a particle accelerator.
- We measure the direction and decay of the pions in space (according to current direction of earth).
- we do not measure the velocity

I feel the pions does not care about the speed of an observer. The EPR paradox on Quantum entanglement showed that Relativity can still be unaffected on larger scales, if it is not based on information exchange. Does the direction of the pions has no measureable effect on the mean life ?
 
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olli said:
I feel the pions does not care about the speed of an observer.
That is correct, they do not. In their own frame they decay at the same rate regardless of any observers.

If one observer said, "the pion is traveling 3m/s to the right and 4m/s forward", and if another observer said, "no, the pion is traveling 5m/s forward" would the pions care? Of course not. Would you even say that the observers disagreed? You might, they certainly use different numbers to describe the same thing, but if you asked them a question that was independent of the coordinate system they would always agree.

The point of relativity is just that a time of 1s later is as dependent on the observer as a direction of 1m right.
 
olli said:
As far as I know, the limited lifetime of e.g. mesons is caused by the weak interaction, a fundamental force. The mean life is depending on the relativic effects caused by the high speed. If the decay process is obeserved by a different inertial system, does the expectation of the mean life follow the Special Relativity ?
The mean life for such particles do not depend on relativistic effects. However an outside observer's measurement of duration may not agree with the actual lifetime due to relativistic effects.
 
DaleSpam said:
That is correct, they do not. In their own frame they decay at the same rate regardless of any observers.

Thank you! that's the point.
 

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