Comparing fractions with definite integrals

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around comparing two ratios of definite integrals involving powers of \(x\) and \(\sin x\). Participants explore various approaches to establish which of the two ratios is larger, focusing on inequalities and approximations rather than direct evaluation of the integrals.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant introduces the problem and defines \(I_n = \int_0^{\pi/2} x^n \sin^n x \, dx\), attempting integration by parts to relate \(I_n\) and \(I_{n-1}\).
  • Another participant suggests using inequalities for \(\sin x\) to approximate the integrals, specifically \(\sin(x) \leq x\) and \(\sin(x) \geq \frac{2}{\pi} x\), and derives bounds for \(I_n\).
  • Further elaboration on the inequalities leads to bounds for the ratios \(\frac{I_{2011}}{I_{2012}}\) and \(\frac{I_{2014}}{I_{2013}}\), indicating a numerical range for these ratios.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the validity of the inequality \(\sin^n(x) \geq \frac{2}{\pi} x^n\), questioning its boundedness.
  • There is a suggestion to compare \(I_n\) and \(I_{n+1}\) based on the increasing nature of \(x \sin x\) on the interval, proposing a potentially simpler approach.
  • A participant acknowledges an error in their earlier post regarding the formulation of \(I_n\) and seeks clarification on the bounds derived by others.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the appropriateness of certain inequalities and methods for bounding the integrals. There is no consensus on the best approach to solve the problem, and multiple competing views remain.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in their approaches, including the potential inaccuracy of certain inequalities and the complexity of deriving bounds without numerical assistance.

Saitama
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Hello! I found the following problem on AOPS:

Which is larger,

$$\Large \frac{\int_{0}^{\frac{\pi}{2}}x^{2014}\sin^{2014}x\ dx}{\int_{0}^{\frac{\pi}{2}}x^{2013}\sin^{2013}x\ dx}\ \text{or}\ \frac{\int_{0}^{\frac{\pi}{2}}x^{2011}\sin^{2011}x\ dx}{\int_{0}^{\frac{\pi}{2}}x^{2012}\sin^{2012}x\ dx}\ ?$$

I don't really have much idea about the problem. I thought of defining:
$$I_n=\int_0^{\pi/2} x^n\sin^n x\,dx$$
From integration by parts, I got:
$$I_n=\left(\sin^n x \frac{x^{n+1}}{n+1}\right|_0^{\pi/2}-\int_0^{\pi/2} n\sin^{n-1} x \cos x \frac{x^{n+1}}{n+1}\,dx=-\frac{n}{n+1}\int_0^{\pi/2} x^{n+1}\sin^{n+1}x \frac{\cos x}{\sin^2 x}\,dx$$
but this doesn't help in obtaining a relation between $I_n$ and $I_{n-1}$. I am stuck here.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks!
 
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I don't think that solving the integral will be helpful but I guess you should use approximations. Use the following two inequalities which hold correct on $[0,\pi /2]$

$$\sin(x)\leq x $$

$$\sin(x)\geq \frac{2}{\pi } x$$
 
ZaidAlyafey said:
I don't think that solving the integral will be helpful but I guess you should use approximations. Use the following two inequalities which hold correct on $[0,\pi /2]$

$$\sin(x)\leq x $$

$$\sin(x)\geq \frac{2}{\pi } x$$

Using the inequalities:
$$\frac{2}{\pi}\int_0^{\pi/2} x^{2n}\,dx\leq I_n \leq \int_0^{\pi/2}x^{2n}\,dx$$
$$\Rightarrow \frac{1}{2n+1}\left(\frac{\pi}{2}\right)^{2n} \leq I_n \leq \frac{1}{2n+1}\left(\frac{\pi}{2}\right)^{2n+1}\,\,\,(*)$$
From above, we can write the bounds for $I_{n+1}$ i.e
$$\frac{1}{2n+3}\left(\frac{\pi}{2}\right)^{2n+2} \leq I_{n+1} \leq \frac{1}{2n+3}\left(\frac{\pi}{2}\right)^{2n+3}$$
$$\Rightarrow (2n+3)\left(\frac{2}{\pi}\right)^{2n+3}\leq \frac{1}{I_{n+1}} \leq (2n+3)\left(\frac{2}{\pi}\right)^{2n+2}\,\,\,\,(**)$$
Using (*) and (**),
$$\frac{2n+3}{2n+1}\left(\frac{2}{\pi}\right)^3 \leq \frac{I_n}{I_{n+1}} \leq \frac{2n+3}{2n+1}\left(\frac{2}{\pi}\right)$$
For $n=2011$,
$$\frac{4025}{4023}\left(\frac{2}{\pi}\right)^3 \leq \frac{I_{2011}}{I_{2012}}\leq \frac{4025}{4023} \left(\frac{2}{\pi}\right) \Rightarrow 0.2581 \leq \frac{I_{2011}}{I_{2012}} \leq 0.6369$$
For $n=2013$
$$\frac{4027}{4029}\left(\frac{\pi}{2}\right) \leq \frac{I_{2014}}{I_{2013}}\leq \frac{4027}{4029} \left(\frac{\pi}{2}\right)^3 \Rightarrow 1.57 \leq \frac{I_{2014}}{I_{2014}}\leq 3.87$$

This shows that the first ratio is greater. Thanks a lot ZaidAlyafey! :)

But I had to use a calculator to find those values, is their a way to do it without using a calculator?
 
You are using that

$$\sin^n(x)\geq \frac{2}{\pi } x^n$$

But I don't think that this inequality holds because

$$\left| \frac{2}{\pi } x^n \right| $$

is not bounded by 1.
 
ZaidAlyafey said:
You are using that

$$\sin^n(x)\geq \frac{2}{\pi } x^n$$

But I don't think that this inequality holds because

$$\left| \frac{2}{\pi } x^n \right| $$

is not bounded by 1.

Do I have to use $\sin^n x \geq \left(\frac{2}{\pi}x\right)^n$? If so, the bounds would be very dirty. (Sweating)
 
Pranav said:
Do I have to use $\sin^n x \geq \left(\frac{2}{\pi}x\right)^n$? If so, the bounds would be very dirty. (Sweating)

I don't think it is the best approach. The problem might be easier than I thought. Compare $I_n$ and $I_{n+1}$ and use that $x\sin x$ is increasing and positive on the interval.
 
Note that

$$\frac{I_n}{I_{n+1}}\leq 1 \leq \frac{I_{n+1}}{I_{n}} $$
 
ZaidAlyafey said:
Note that

$$\frac{I_n}{I_{n+1}}\leq 1 \leq \frac{I_{n+1}}{I_{n}} $$

Sorry for the late reply.

I just noticed that what I wrote in the first post is incorrect. It should be

$$(n+1)I_n=\left(\frac{\pi}{2}\right)^{n+1}-n\int_0^{\pi/2} x^{n+1}\sin^{n+1}x \frac{\cos x}{\sin^2 x}\,dx$$
But I still do not see how you got those bounds. :confused:
 

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