Conservation of energy and space expansion

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the conservation of energy in the context of an expanding universe, particularly focusing on the implications of redshift on photon energy. Participants explore the relationship between photon wavelength, frequency, and energy as it pertains to cosmological expansion.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant posits that as a photon travels through expanding space, its wavelength increases (redshift), leading to a decrease in frequency and energy, raising the question of where this energy goes in light of conservation laws.
  • Another participant argues that energy conservation applies only within inertial frames, suggesting that in non-inertial frames, such as those involving galactic redshift, energy is defined locally and global conservation does not hold.
  • A third participant agrees with the previous point and references a blog post by cosmologist Sean Carroll, which discusses the non-conservation of energy in general relativity, noting that this concept can be counterintuitive.
  • One participant emphasizes that the issue with energy conservation lies in how energy is defined rather than energy itself.
  • A participant provides a link to a FAQ that discusses the total mass-energy of the universe, indicating that this topic has been addressed in other discussions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the conservation of energy in an expanding universe, with some asserting that global energy conservation does not apply, while others raise questions about the implications of energy loss and its definition. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in defining energy in non-inertial frames and the implications of general relativity on energy conservation, without reaching a consensus on these complex issues.

Lopes1801
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This had me thinking for a while. Imagine a photon emitted by a very distant object at a redshift of z = 2.0 for example. As the photon travels through space, due to space expansion the photon's wavelength will shift towards red. With an increase in the wavelength there must come a decrease in the frequency. With that, the energy of the photon also decreases. Therefore, the photon must lose energy. And by the law of conservation of energy, this amount of energy cannot disappear. So where does the energy go to?
(I don't know whether the question should be labeled as Basic or Intermediary, so I arbitrarily chose one of the options)
 
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Energy conservation only applies within inertial frames. Within a non-inertial frame - which is what is needed for any thought experiment big enough to incorporate galactic redshift - energy is only defined locally, and there is no principle of global energy conservation.
 
I agree with Andrew. The cosmologist Sean Carroll has a blog post about this called "Energy is not conserved in an expanding universe"
If you google the title you will, I think, get it. A lot of fairly intuitive discussion. Non conservation of energy in GR is well known, just a bit unintuitive when first encountered.
 
The problem with energy conservation is not energy, the problem is in defining how you define energy.
 

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