Conservation of energy in bouncing ball

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the conservation of energy in the context of a bouncing ball, specifically analyzing the kinetic energy before and after an elastic collision with the ground. Participants explore different frames of reference and the implications for momentum and energy conservation, considering both theoretical and practical aspects of the scenario.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the total kinetic energy after the collision is greater than before, suggesting a misunderstanding of energy conservation principles.
  • Others argue that the kinetic energy of the ground is negligible, and thus the ball's velocity after the collision is slightly less than -v, leading to a difference in kinetic energy attributed to the ground.
  • A participant introduces the concept of relative velocity and the observer's frame of reference, suggesting that energy conservation depends on whether the observer is stationary or moving with the ground.
  • Some participants express confusion about the conservation of kinetic energy from different observer perspectives, with one noting that in a non-inertial frame, kinetic energy is not conserved.
  • There is a contention regarding the validity of using different observers to analyze the same event, with some insisting that a consistent frame must be used to avoid contradictions.
  • One participant claims that if the observer is on the ground, they would not perceive any kinetic energy for the Earth, leading to a belief that energy is conserved in that frame.
  • Another participant counters that the Earth does gain kinetic energy after the collision, as it moves in an inertial frame, and thus energy conservation holds in that context.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach consensus on the conservation of kinetic energy across different frames of reference. There are competing views on whether energy is conserved depending on the observer's position and the implications of using different frames to analyze the event.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of defining the observer's frame of reference, noting that inconsistencies arise when switching between inertial and non-inertial frames. The discussion reflects various assumptions about momentum and energy that remain unresolved.

  • #31
Very confusing for me at least.

I ll define two different (i think) frames:

Frame A: The frame where the ground is stationary before the collision.
Frame B: The ground frame where ground is stationary, before, during and after the collision.

I hope frames A and B are well defined (i sense there might be a problem with the way i define frame A, if so explain to me). Also i think Frame A is inertial before, during and after the collision, while Frame B is inertial before and after, but not during, the collision. We "have the right" to remain in frame A even after the collision right?

What i really want to ask is this:
What are the velocities of the ball and the ground , before and after the collision, in Frame A?
Same question for Frame B.
 
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  • #32
For the CM system:$$ mv + MV = 0 ,\, E_{cm} = \frac{1}{2}mv^2 + \frac{1}{2}MV^2 $$For V=0 we have another frame witch move by V before collision and -V after collision.
For what reason a system that in time dt change his velocity from V to -V must conserve any kinetic energy?
 
  • #33
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  • #34
Ok it is now clear to me that in Frame B it will be ##v_2=-u_2## for some reason i couldn't see that, thanks. However in Frame A it is ##|v_2|<|u_2|## correct?
 

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