Correlating IQ and STEM performance

[symbolipoint]

@OmCheeto,
One must worry about development time and conditioning time. Description gave strikes like a Get Rich Quick Scheme.

 

[mathwonk]

In some PhD programs, one earns a masters by progressing far enough to pass the prelim exams. A long time ago, I walked into the UWa math dept, was allowed to sit for, and passed, their math PhD prelims in one sitting, never having registered for any class there. Did I earn a masters in that one day (or maybe it was a week), or was it done over the several prior years I spent preparing on my own, while teaching community college? My point is one can earn an exam- based BS in the time it takes to sit for the exam, provided one knows all the material.

 

[Matterwave]

A long time ago, I walked into the UWa math dept, was allowed to sit for, and passed, their math PhD prelims in one sitting, never having registered for any class there.

You just love taking tests that much?

 

[mathwonk]

I do sometimes enjoy taking tests, but my goal was to earn a PhD. After that sitting, UWa offered me a fellowship. Test taking can be a profit - making enterprise, if you are good at it.

I enjoyed meat lugging too, but it only paid $4 an hour. A multi -year fellowship for a few hours work beats that hollow, at least financially, even if it doesn't feel as beneficial physically.

 

[bhobba]

Is that even possible to get a BS in one year?

Yes - by competency based degrees and dedication.

They are fully accedited degrees like the one at East Texas A&M

https://www.etamu.edu/cbe/

Thanks
Bill

 

[sbrothy]

my 2 cents:
To my knowledge, IQ tests aim to measure in part:
vocabulary, analogies, memory, numerical problem solving, spatial skills, and mental speed.
These attributes are helpful in pursuing stem subjects, but possibly even more important are:
interest, curiosity, creativity, and especially stamina/persistence.

That said, in my uni grad math program, essentially no candidate succeeded who had lower than a 640 math GRE score. I admitted several unfortunate cases before I realized that sobering fact, having previously disparaged the meaningfulness of standardized tests. I learned that recommendation letters are indeed helpful, but comparatively speaking, standardized scores don't lie.

It doesn't really surpise me. Why else would they be so prevalent and popular among employers etc?

I've seen several applications used to design standardized tests and it's an entire industry.

 

[jedishrfu]

I don't think you can suppress geniuses like Einstein, von Braun or Gauss. They'll make themselves noticed.

And yet Ramanujan almost did slip through the cracks if not for some special people in India and Hardy and Littlewood in England.

 

[mathwonk]

Thanks for motivating me look this up. It seems Ramanujan's first two attempts at wider recognition were via letters in late 1912 to Hobson and H.F.Baker, mathematicians known to me for (books on) analysis and algebraic geometry respectively. His letter in January 1913 το Ηardy, a number theorist, was almost immediately appreciated deeply. It seems he just had to address someone who could appreciate what he was doing, i.e. a number theorist of 1st rank. Fortunately it didn't take all that long. But sadly, it may be that his time in England, with its colder weather, may have contributed to his premature death.

 

[ohwilleke]

I don't think you can suppress geniuses like Einstein, von Braun or Gauss. They'll make themselves noticed.

I think that you are almost surely wrong. When I first moved to Denver, I looked at detailed statistics about various kinds of educational outcomes at different high schools in the city. One of those was West High School which had the worst outcomes in the city.

In particular, they tracked kids who had tested as "gifted" on an IQ test in early elementary school (a cutoff of roughly 135 IQ), and how they fared in high school and whether they went to college immediately after high school, however many years later.

At West HS only 1% of kids who were tested as gifted on an IQ tests in elementary school went to college. At some other public high schools in the same city, more than 95% of kids tested as gifted on an IQ test in elementary school went to college.

Tested IQ basically measures potential to benefit from education. But it is squandered if the educational opportunities provided don't utilize that potential.

 

[sbrothy]

Yeah, I recognized that I have to follow the point you made. I regret nothing!

 

[Mantirion]

I think yes, it does correlate. As a member of Mensa and having Master in informatics, I have seen some discussions and articles about this topic. But the correlation is mostly about minimum IQ needed. So if somebody has for example IQ 85, he/she will struggle in STEM education. But somewhere in range 110 to 120 the advantage dissipates and there are other more important factors like working hard. Actually for example there are more Nobel winners with IQ around 120 than around 150 and my guess the same is valid for successful STEM graduates.

 

[WWGD]

I think that you are almost surely wrong. When I first moved to Denver, I looked at detailed statistics about various kinds of educational outcomes at different high schools in the city. One of those was West High School which had the worst outcomes in the city.

In particular, they tracked kids who had tested as "gifted" on an IQ test in early elementary school (a cutoff of roughly 135 IQ), and how they fared in high school and whether they went to college immediately after high school, however many years later.

At West HS only 1% of kids who were tested as gifted on an IQ tests in elementary school went to college. At some other public high schools in the same city, more than 95% of kids tested as gifted on an IQ test in elementary school went to college.

Tested IQ basically measures potential to benefit from education. But it is squandered if the educational opportunities provided don't utilize that potential.

Scientist Dave Epstein, who studies success and performance, agrees with you here.

 

[WWGD]

I think yes, it does correlate. As a member of Mensa and having Master in informatics, I have seen some discussions and articles about this topic. But the correlation is mostly about minimum IQ needed. So if somebody has for example IQ 85, he/she will struggle in STEM education. But somewhere in range 110 to 120 the advantage dissipates and there are other more important factors like working hard. Actually for example there are more Nobel winners with IQ around 120 than around 150 and my guess the same is valid for successful STEM graduates.

(Dis)advantage?

 

[bhobba]

I think that you are almost surely wrong.

I think Jaime Escalante showed that giftedness is nowhere near as important as it's made out to be. He would only accept those who liked math and/or had ganas (desire) yet achieved stellar results:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaime_Escalante

A great, great man and a personal hero.

To the younger readers here, don't worry if you are not smart, gifted or whatever slot others have assigned. I was assigned as needing what we call an opportunity school here in Australia. But my love of math never wavered.

Learn basic calculus as soon as you can; read Lenny Suskind's Theoretical Minimum series, and you will have laid the foundations for understanding way beyond our uninspiring education system.

Thanks
Bill

 

[Mantirion]

(Dis)advantage?

But somewhere in range 110 to 120 the advantage of higher IQ dissipates and there are other more important factors like working hard. Meaning having IQ over 120 does not matter so much as other factors.

 

[WWGD]

But somewhere in range 110 to 120 the advantage of higher IQ dissipates and there are other more important factors like working hard. Meaning having IQ over 120 does not matter so much as other factors.

IIRC , there's a general diminishing return for IQ, beyond 130 or so, it may even work against you. Some seem to have issues with Dopamine addictions ( informal), so that they jump from activity to activity, looking for their next fix. Take it with some salt, as these are things I've read, ih which I'm not an expert.

 

[OmCheeto]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaime_Escalante

A great, great man and a personal hero.

Some great quotes in there.

'There is no teaching, no learning going on here. We are just baby-sitting.'

Due to the fact that I had 3 encyclopedias* at home, had been fascinated by maths since the age of 4, and ended up with zero friends from high school by the age of 23, I can relate with this sentence.

To the younger readers here, don't worry if you are not smart, gifted or whatever slot others have assigned.

Might have been the U.S. educational system, but I have zero recollection of ever having been called smart or gifted. All I seem to recall is inferring that I was stupid because of my grades, as I was bored to death, of stuff I already knew.

----
* I've queried my siblings as to how we ended up with 3 encyclopedias in our house, as we were so poor, my mother used to put two of my siblings on her bicycle to ride them to the harvest fields, 5 miles away, twice, as, well, there were 7 of us. Still no answer.

 

[mathwonk]

hang in there mr.cheeto. and make sure those books are there for your family.

 

[mathwonk]

I told my wife about this IQ thread and she reminded me of an experience with one of our kids. The IQ tester asked him (at age 4 or 5 ?) to say as many different words as he could in 1 minute. He immediately started to count quickly : "one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ....." and then broke out laughing guiltily, stopped, and began again slowly, as if bored, with "pig, dog, cat,...". At this point we realized we were over our heads raising him. Somewhat later he said he was tired and wanted to go home, but we said "no, you can't quit until you miss one". His score was higher than mine (math major) but he was a fine arts major in college.

 

[WWGD]

I told my wife about this IQ thread and she reminded me of an experience with one of our kids. The IQ tester asked him (at age 4 or 5 ?) to say as many different words as he could in 1 minute. He immediately started to count quickly : "one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ....." and then broke out laughing guiltily, stopped, and began again slowly, as if bored, with "pig, dog, cat,...". At this point we realized we were over our heads raising him. Somewhat later he said he was tired and wanted to go home, but we said "no, you can't quit until you miss one". His score was higher than mine (math major) but he was a fine arts major in college.

Maybe overdoing it here, or being thick " Rainman: style, but how can you decide when words are different beyond a literal sense: are words literally different yet with the same root,really different: Life, live, lived, living , alive. Or , as in your case above, one, two, three, etc. Or law, lawyer, legal, illegal, etc?

 

[symbolipoint]

Agreeing here. "Say as many words as you can in 1 minute" seems a very poor test question. What exactly is being evaluated is not clear. People including children do not think along the line of "how many words do you know?" NOBODY checks themselves about how many words he knows.

 

[sbrothy]

I think Jaime Escalante showed that giftedness is nowhere near as important as it's made out to be. He would only accept those who liked math and/or had ganas (desire) yet achieved stellar results:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaime_Escalante

A great, great man and a personal hero.

To the younger readers here, don't worry if you are not smart, gifted or whatever slot others have assigned. I was assigned as needing what we call an opportunity school here in Australia. But my love of math never wavered.

Learn basic calculus as soon as you can; read Lenny Suskind's Theoretical Minimum series, and you will have laid the foundations for understanding way beyond our uninspiring education system.

Thanks
Bill

He was threatened with dismissal by an assistant principal because he was coming in too early, leaving too late, and failing to get administrative permission to raise funds to pay for his students' Advanced Placement tests[...]

That may be the most daft reason for firing a driven educator (or indeed anyone) I've ever heard!

 

[symbolipoint]

That may be the most daft reason for firing a driven educator (or indeed anyone) I've ever heard!

Terrible, but no longer completely surprising. Some bit much like it is, "We can't allow you to work off-the-clock".

 

[bhobba]

That may be the most daft reason for firing a driven educator (or indeed anyone) I've ever heard!

Bureaucracies are well known for it. Groupthink maybe?

Thanks
Bill

 

[symbolipoint]

Posts 52, 53, 54
Along with all that is, high quality and motivated worker or overseer and guide has plenty, more than plenty of work to get through and not enough strictly scheduled time; so he spends EXTRA time trying to accomplish satisfaction of the workload. Problem is that the manager or administrators get upset because they cannot pay for the extra time which that dedicated worker is spending. But the work really needs to be done, within scheduled time or outside of it. "We must resist paying you for working so much time "off the clock"; we cannot approve of you spending that time to work".

(Tried to explain it better in this posting)

Almost or about as bad as the educ. administrators saying to their teachers and students, "These courses each are designed to be completed in xx number of hours of instruction".

 

[sbrothy]

Posts 52, 53, 54
Along with all that is, high quality and motivated worker or overseer and guide has plenty, more than plenty of work to get through and not enough strictly scheduled time; so he spends EXTRA time trying to accomplish satisfaction of the workload. Problem is that the manager or administrators get upset because they cannot pay for the extra time which that dedicated worker is spending. But the work really needs to be done, within scheduled time or outside of it. "We must resist paying you for working so much time "off the clock"; we cannot approve of you spending that time to work".

(Tried to explain it better in this posting)

Almost or about as bad as the educ. administrators saying to their teachers and students, "These courses each are designed to be completed in xx number of hours of instruction".

I don't know how to translate it, but when I worked at Mærsk Data I was free to arrive latest at 10:00 as long as I put in my 37 hours of work a week. I took some pretty serious liberties but the boss of my boss always reset my workhours because of my value (sorry for tooting my own horn). They called me the "fire extinguisher from the 6th floor"!

 

[sbrothy]

I don't know how to translate it, but when I worked at Mærsk Data I was free to arrive latest at 10:00 as long as I put in my 37 hours of work a week. I took some pretty serious liberties but the boss of my boss always reset my workhours because of my value (sorry for tooting my own horn). They called me the "fire extinguisher from the 6th floor"!

Funnily, even though I have no education, the work of an employee with a Ph.D in mathematics from Teheran University and an actuary doing legacy-coding in a statistical language (EDIT: R I think it was) had to pass my desk before being sent on. Good days. Stressful but good.

 

[Rx7man]

Some really interesting reads in this thread..

I think that a Big 5 personality test together with an IQ test would show a more complete picture of someone's predicted success in STEM fields in university.

Jordan Peterson can be criticized for many things, but when he talk about his field of specialty, I'd expect the criticism to be from someone with at least as much training in his field.. When he speaks of clinical psychology, you'd do well to listen.
IQ is the the most accurate thing to come out of modern psychology with the best predictive ability.

This 13 minute video goes into what IQ is quite well for its briefness


Here's a bit a longer one, talking about the "big 5" personality traits, Agreeableness, Conscientiousness, etc


And this video I felt very personally attacked by..
The "Gifted kid" problem.. The gifted kid picks up on what the teacher says right away and fully understands it right then and there, so there is no need for that kid to LEARN TO STUDY in high school, while the more average kids learned how to do this early on


I think a great failure of the educational system (at least where I am) is that they will bore the gifted kids to tears in order for the slower learners to keep up. For me it seemed like English classes from about Grade 4 to grade 10 was just learning nouns, verbs, adjectives, etc.. for 6 years... I mean if that doesn't bore the interest out of a guy I don't know what will.
I was lucky when I transferred from a lousy private school into public high school that i had some very good teachers, and that we were on the quarter system (only 2 subjects taught per quarter, 4 quarters per school year), which made for very fast paced learning, and you could cover several years of material in a subject in one school year, which means you didn't have to spend a bunch of time trying to remember the previous years subject matter.
I did Math 11, 12, and Calculus 12 in 1 year, When I entered Math 11, my previous school failed me so badly I was WELL behind, but caught up, I think I had a B in 11, A in 12, and A in Calculus.. Biology was similar, A in 11, and high A in 12 (top 1 percentile in the province), Physics and chemistry were also great.
Then I went to university, and my lack of conscientiousness, coupled with new-found freedom made me a dropout after 3 years. the best thing I could have done instead of going straight from high school to university is just get some jobs, get the partying out of my system, and decide what I REALLY wanted to do.

Except for when the economy was bad in the 2000's, I can say my job success has been pretty good and can relate to this

They called me the "fire extinguisher from the 6th floor"!

I'm called upon when no one else can figure out a problem, I'm a HD mechanic now.. when something is broken they call me to fix it.. sometimes I don't have what I need to fix it right, but I'll figure something out

Replace an excavator engine 3 hours from nowhere on the side of a hill? OK!

 

[symbolipoint]

I don't know how to translate it, but when I worked at Mærsk Data I was free to arrive latest at 10:00 as long as I put in my 37 hours of work a week. I took some pretty serious liberties but the boss of my boss always reset my workhours because of my value (sorry for tooting my own horn). They called me the "fire extinguisher from the 6th floor"!

We most likely understand the quality of what you "didn't know how to translate".

My intuition says, you mean "Arrive at some reasonable time; work enough time to accomplish what is needed; and be helpful in the opportunities that require that help."