Cosmological redshift alternative explanation?

In summary, the cosmological redshift could be explained as a change of the fundamental physical constants with distance, but there are many other reasons that all fit together to support the standard interpretation.
  • #1
Aidyan
180
13
Could the cosmological redshift be explained also as a change of the fundamental physical constants with distance? Say Planck's constant changing over billions of light years, instead of interpreting it as a Doppler effect due to a recession speed? Yes, I know, Occam's razor would favor the standard interpretation, but I'm wondering if there are concrete reasons for we can exclude this possibility for sure?
 
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  • #2
Hi Aldyan,
there are so many reasons that all fit together. I expect others will point out reasons to you why that picture doesn't work.

You are imagining a static universe where everything stays the same distance apart and the redshift is due to the light emitted/absorbed by a hydrogen atom, say, having been longer wavelength in the past. So one or more constants of physics change thru history always at just the right rate to make the emitted and absorbed light always the right color.

So many reasons. Like e.g. why wouldn't the static universe fall together.

But, not to take away from reasons other people may provide, I want to mention an interesting thing that is remotely connected to this. It might interest you.


You know what "arc second" or "second of angle" is----a minute is 1/60 of a degree and a second is 1/60 of a minute. So a second (") is 1/3600 of a degree.

If we see an object and its light is redshift 1.65, say, then if it is 1" wide then we estimate that it is 27,900 lightyears wide. A medium size galaxy, so to speak.

A similar object, say about the same actual size, if its light is redshift 3.65, then how big would it look in angular size? Would you not expect that because it is farther away it would look smaller and would have angular size LESS than 1"?

But in fact its angular size would be 17% larger. It would be 1.17", that is 1.17 seconds of arc. You think because farther it should look smaller, but in fact things farther than z=1.65 look BIGGER.

You might find this effect interesting. It applies most strongly to the temperature map of the CMB ancient light. One sees density ripples---*sound waves* in the hot gas. We know the temperature of the hot gas that emitted the light and so can calculate what the speed of sound was and what size waves to expect. We can get a handle on the *angular sizes* of these fluctuations in temperature and density. So there are objects out there at a known redshift whose physical size we can estimate, as it was when they emitted the light. And compare that with their angular size now.

Many different kinds of data to explain and fit together.
 
  • #3
Yes, but, this explanation rapidly falls apart in the face of other observational evidence, as marcus explained. For example, the fine structure constant - http://www.eso.org/public/images/eso0407a/
 
  • #4
marcus said:
You are imagining a static universe where everything stays the same distance apart and the redshift is due to the light emitted/absorbed by a hydrogen atom, say, having been longer wavelength in the past. So one or more constants of physics change thru history always at just the right rate to make the emitted and absorbed light always the right color.
So many reasons. Like e.g. why wouldn't the static universe fall together.

Data suggest we live in an accelerating universe. If we misinterpret the redshift due to the constants change as an expansion, the added real expansion will result in an overall acceleration. It fits...

marcus said:
But, not to take away from reasons other people may provide, I want to mention an interesting thing that is remotely connected to this. It might interest you.
You know what "arc second" or "second of angle" is----a minute is 1/60 of a degree and a second is 1/60 of a minute. So a second (") is 1/3600 of a degree.
If we see an object and its light is redshift 1.65, say, then if it is 1" wide then we estimate that it is 27,900 lightyears wide. A medium size galaxy, so to speak.

A similar object, say about the same actual size, if its light is redshift 3.65, then how big would it look in angular size? Would you not expect that because it is farther away it would look smaller and would have angular size LESS than 1"?

Interesting indeed, what is the technical name of this effect? I would like to read some paper on this to go into the details.

marcus said:
But in fact its angular size would be 17% larger. It would be 1.17", that is 1.17 seconds of arc. You think because farther it should look smaller, but in fact things farther than z=1.65 look BIGGER.

What is the standard explanation for that?

Anyhow, I think that the change of constants conjecture could perhaps arrange for that since also the atoms size (and therefore the size of which the galaxy is made of) depends from fundamental constants. I know that this sounds wired, but science is after all also about the exclusion of other alternatives, as crazy they might be.

Chronos said:
Yes, but, this explanation rapidly falls apart in the face of other observational evidence, as marcus explained. For example, the fine structure constant - http://www.eso.org/public/images/eso0407a/

Is this Chand et al. work? In wiki it reads: "... in 2007 simple flaws were identified in the analysis method of Chand et al., discrediting those results.".

Moreover this recent paper might be interesting: http://arxiv.org/abs/1202.4758

And also: constancy in \alpha does not imply constancy of the values it is made of, we can have smaller \hbar and larger c, and maintain \alpha invariant, etc.
 
  • #5
Varying hbar and c, or e, so as to maintain an invariant, or painfully slowly evolving fine structure constant just adds a fine tuning problem to an already messy idea. The authors of the paper you reference do not convincingly rule out systematic error, instrument bias, Mg evolution, or other unidentified cosmic factors as a possible source of the small variations in alpha reported.
 
  • #6
What I'm talking about is not a special "effect" so much as kinder-grade cosmology. You can get it out of the basic calculator. Google "wright calculator" or "cosmo calculator".

Consider two redshifts z = 1.65 and z = 1090 (the redshift of the ancient light CMB.)

Consider objects each 27900 lightyears wide located at those two distances from us.
The nearer object will have an angular size of one arcsecond (1/3600 of one degree).

The farther object will have an angular size of 1/8 of one degree. That is the more distant object, though the same diameter, will appear to be about 450 times larger in the sky.

This is an elementary consequence of expansion. People don't write papers about it, as far as I know. Can't imagine why they should---well-known, one of many consequences of expanding distances.

I just picked the numbers because convenient for illustration. Because of expansion, older things look bigger in the sky, past a certain point.
 
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What is cosmological redshift alternative explanation?

Cosmological redshift alternative explanation is a theory that proposes an alternative explanation for the observed redshift in the light from distant galaxies. This theory challenges the widely accepted idea that the redshift is caused by the expansion of the universe.

What is the traditional explanation for cosmological redshift?

The traditional explanation for cosmological redshift is the Doppler effect, which suggests that the redshift is caused by the motion of galaxies away from us due to the expansion of the universe.

What evidence supports the cosmological redshift alternative explanation?

Some scientists argue that the observed redshift can also be explained by other factors, such as the tired light theory, which suggests that the light from distant galaxies loses energy as it travels through space, causing a redshift.

Why is the cosmological redshift alternative explanation controversial?

This theory is controversial because it challenges the widely accepted understanding of the universe's expansion and the role of redshift in determining the distance and age of objects in the universe. It also lacks strong evidence to support it.

What are the implications of the cosmological redshift alternative explanation?

If this theory is proven to be true, it could significantly change our understanding of the universe and its evolution. It could also have an impact on other theories, such as the Big Bang theory, which relies on the traditional explanation of cosmological redshift.

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