Countermeasures for hypersonic weapons

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around potential countermeasures against hypersonic weapons, which are defined as missiles traveling in excess of 1.5 km/s. Participants explore various theoretical and practical aspects of interception, including the challenges posed by the speed and agility of these weapons, as well as the limitations of current technologies such as conventional interceptors and laser systems.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that conventional interceptor missiles would need to be hypersonic themselves to effectively intercept incoming hypersonic missiles, citing the need for speed and agility.
  • Others argue that interceptors do not need to be faster than the target if they can intercept from ahead of the target's path, using analogies to sports to illustrate this point.
  • Concerns are raised about the agility of hypersonic missiles, with some participants questioning whether they can be highly agile given their speed, while others assert that agility is indeed a characteristic of these weapons.
  • There is a discussion about the limitations of laser systems due to the plasma sheath and shockwaves surrounding hypersonic missiles, which may hinder effective targeting.
  • Participants note the potential dangers of using close-in weapon systems (CIWS) for urban defense against hypersonic threats, highlighting issues with ordnance falling back to the ground and the risk of malfunctioning shells.
  • Some contributions emphasize the need for specific scenarios or weapon types to better understand the challenges and countermeasures relevant to hypersonic threats.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessary characteristics of interceptors and the agility of hypersonic missiles. There is no consensus on the effectiveness of current countermeasures or the specific challenges posed by hypersonic weapons, indicating ongoing debate and uncertainty.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include varying definitions of hypersonic weapons, the complexity of missile interception dynamics, and the specific contexts in which these discussions apply, such as urban versus military targets.

  • #211
boneh3ad said:
Russia goes out of their way to oversell their stuff.
Yes they do. The Moskva was an invincible flagship. Now it's an artificial reef at the bottom of the Black Sea.
 
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  • #212
boneh3ad said:
Kinzhal was never a superweapon. But Patriot has a history of being seriously oversold (e.g., in the Gulf War when it was sold as having a nearly 100% success rate against Scuds and apparently had a nearly 0% success rate in reality). So to me this is very interesting because it's a very public demonstration of how much improvement these systems have had.
It's worth noting that PAC-3 is almost an entirely different weapons system than the Gulf War era Patriot. It follows the US tradition of keeping the same name for a system even when basically everything about it has been redesigned.

Unlike Patriot Classic, Pac-3 has an active radar seeker (in the missile itself), uses small maneuvering rockets for terminal maneuvering rather than aerodynamic forces, and is hit-to-kill rather than proximity fused. It is shorter range, but it's been heavily optimized for terminal defense against short to medium range ballistic missiles like Kinzhal/Iskander, and we've been testing it against aeroballistic targets like Boosted Zombie (basically an ATACMS converted to be a target missile on top of a Terrier booster). It's probably one of the best shorter range air defense systems in existence.
 
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  • #213
Vanadium 50 said:
Yes they do. The Moskva was an invincible flagship. Now it's an artificial reef at the bottom of the Black Sea.
As some guys I fly with in DCS would put it. "It has been promoted from surface combatant to submarine."
 
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  • #214
https://www.404media.co/ukraine-is-jamming-russias-superweapon-with-a-song/
The Ukrainian Army is knocking a once-hyped Russian superweapon out of the sky by jamming it with a song and tricking it into thinking it’s in Lima, Peru. The Kremlin once called its Kh-47M2 Kinzhal ballistic missiles “invincible.” Joe Biden said the missile was “almost impossible to stop.” Now Ukrainian electronic warfare experts say they can counter the Kinzhal with some music and a re-direction order.
...
Once the song hits, Night Watch uses Lima to spoof a navigation signal to the missiles and make them think they’re in Lima, Peru. Once the missile’s confused about its location, it attempts to change direction. These missiles are fast—launched from a MiG-31 they can hit speeds of up to Mach 5.7 or more than 4,000 miles per hour—and an object moving that fast doesn’t fare well with sudden changes of direction.

“The airframe cannot withstand the excessive stress and the missile naturally fails,” Night Watch said. “When the Kinzhal missile tried to quickly change navigation, the fuselage of this missile was unable to handle the speed…and, yeah., it was just cut into two parts…the biggest advantage of those missiles, speed, was used against them. So that’s why we have intercepted 19 missiles for the last two weeks.”
 
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