Covariant vector differentiation problem with kronecker delta?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the differentiation of covariant vectors and the appearance of the Kronecker delta in the context of functional derivatives. Participants explore the mathematical identities and transformations involved in this process, raising questions about the underlying principles and terminology.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the identity used to derive the Kronecker delta after differentiating a covariant vector.
  • Another participant explains that the functional derivative with respect to the vector goes directly to the transformation matrix, leading to the appearance of the delta function.
  • A participant seeks clarification on terminology, asking about the meaning of "wrt" and "a priori" in the context of linear independence of vector components.
  • Clarifications are provided regarding the definition of linear independence and how it relates to the differentiation of vectors and tensors.
  • Questions arise about the flipping of subscripts in the Kronecker delta when differentiating with respect to a specific vector component.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants demonstrate varying levels of understanding and agreement on the mathematical concepts involved. Some express confusion and seek further clarification, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved on certain points.

Contextual Notes

There are references to functional derivatives and the implications of linear independence, but the discussion does not fully resolve the mathematical steps or assumptions involved in the differentiation process.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and practitioners in physics and mathematics who are exploring the concepts of covariant differentiation, functional derivatives, and the properties of vectors and tensors.

randombill
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I'm having trouble understanding the proof/solution below (please see photo, I also wrote out the problem below). I highlighted the part of my problem in red (in the picture attached). Basically I'm not sure what identity they use to get the Kronecker delta after differentiating or whether they use something else to get that part.

"Since A/\nu is covariant vector, it satisfies


A/\nu = (\partialx\rho/\partialx/\nu)A\rho

A/\rho = (\partialx/\mu/\partialx\rho)A/\mu

This next part gives me trouble with the relation:

(\partialA\rho/\partialA/\nu) = (\partialx/\nu/\partialx\rho) \delta\nu\mu

I'm lost as to how the kronecker delta appears. I know that

(\partialx\nu/\partialx\mu) = \delta\nu\mu

[Mod Note: Over-sized image removed. See attachment. Hoot]
 

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Last edited:
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I updated the question without the photo, thanks.
 
One has
<br /> \frac{\partial A_{\rho}}{\partial A&#039;_{\nu}} = \frac{\partial}{\partial A&#039;_{\nu}} \frac{\partial x^{&#039;\mu}}{\partial x^{\rho}} A&#039;_{\mu} = \frac{\partial x^{&#039;\mu}}{\partial x^{\rho}}\frac{\partial A&#039;_{\mu}}{\partial A&#039;_{\nu}} <br />
So the functional derivative wrt A goes right to the transformation matrix. The primes on the fields A can then safely be removed; the components of A are a priori linear independent, if you write them in a primed coordinate system or not (the prime is just a label now). This is where the delta comes from:
<br /> \frac{\partial A_{\rho}}{\partial A&#039;_{\nu}} = \frac{\partial x^{&#039;\mu}}{\partial x^{\rho}}\delta^{\nu}_{\mu} <br />
 
So the functional derivative wrt A goes right to the transformation matrix. The primes on the fields A can then safely be removed; the components of A are a priori linear independent, if you write them in a primed coordinate system or not (the prime is just a label now). This is where the delta comes from:

What does wrt mean? Written?
What does priori linear independent mean?

Are there missing steps that you aren't showing, maybe that would help.

Forgive me I'm still confused, what math class teaches this in terms of schooling or what theorem are you using. I never really studied this formally. I did take linear algebra once and studied linear independence but not related to calculus and matrices.

thanks.
 
Last edited:
wrt means "with respect to".

"a priori" is maybe confusing; I meant "from the outset". A field without any symmetries and no constraints imposed has linear independent components per definition. So a vector has linear independent components, which is expressed as

<br /> \frac{\partial A_{\rho}}{\partial A_{\nu}} = \delta^{\nu}_{\rho} <br />

Similarly, for a tensor T,

<br /> \frac{\partial T_{\mu\nu}}{\partial T_{\rho\sigma}} = \delta^{\rho}_{\mu} \delta^{\sigma}_{\nu} <br />

Etc.
This of course changes whenever T is symmetric or antisymmetric!
 
By the way, these are functional derivatives, so you would like to look at that.
 
haushofer said:
<br /> \frac{\partial A_{\rho}}{\partial A_{\nu}} = \delta^{\nu}_{\rho} <br />

Why does the subscript for the vectors flip in the kronecker delta?

thanks.
 
Because you differentiate with respect to A_{\nu}. Compare with an ordinary derivative:

<br /> \partial_{\mu} = \frac{\partial}{\partial x^{\mu}}<br />
 

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