Cure for muscle tics - how does it work?

[rhody]

I bet it's the sudden urgency of it that would strike an observer as odd .

When you say "it" what are you referring to ? The histamine rush just before and continuing through the sneezing fit ? or something else entirely ? Or grabbing your lip or gums like an idiot in response to it ?

Rhody...

 

[lisab]

When you say "it" what are you referring to ? The histamine rush just before and continuing through the sneezing fit ? or something else entirely ? Or grabbing your lip or gums like an idiot in response to it ?

Rhody...

The grabbing, lol...

 

[rhody]

The grabbing, lol...

Yeah, most times it happens at home, a few times at work, people think you may have broke a tooth or something like that. I try to put my head down when it happens to hide it somewhat. It's better then sneezing 5 or more times though.

Rhody...

 

[rhody]

Last night it happened again, and yes grabbing and slight shaking of your gum's appears to stop it by itself. Ok, the tongue shake and grab is next.

Nismaratwork,

How about you, any luck, inducing and controlling muscle spasms ?

Rhody...

Edit: 7:10 am

I got to work this morning (slightly stuffy which may have contributed to strong histamine release), and garbbed the lip, squeezed and wiggled as usual (before first sneeze) and nothing, nada, big sneeze, kept it up, harder after first sneeze and nothing again, second sneeze, then it abruptly stopped. Maybe there is a certain threshold that with enough histamine release nothing will stop it, or as I said earlier the squeeze is not having the same effect, due to repitition over time, hard to say for sure.

 

[nismaratwork]

Last night it happened again, and yes grabbing and slight shaking of your gum's appears to stop it by itself. Ok, the tongue shake and grab is next.

Nismaratwork,

How about you, any luck, inducing and controlling muscle spasms ?

Rhody...

Edit: 7:1- am

I got to work this morning (slightly stuffy which may have contributed to strong histamine release), and garbbed the lip, squeezed and wiggled as usual (before first sneeze) and nothing, nada, big sneeze, kept it up, harder after first sneeze and nothing again, second sneeze, then it abruptly stopped. Maybe there is a certain threshold that with enough histamine release nothing will stop it, or as I said earlier the squeeze is not having the same effect, due to repitition over time, hard to say for sure.

Ok... spinal surgeon has no idea why this would work, beyond some vague notion of one input taking precedence over others... a bit like fight or flight. I think that's possible, but it was just personal speculation. I'll be doing my workout this Wednesday, so here's hoping for a charlie horse!

I'm definitely leaning towards the notion that this is an issue of pressure points: nerves, vascular pressure points, and maybe even bone. I wonder if digging into clavicle would have an effect, or a gentle massage of the brachial or femoral artery where it nears the surface. Even in the absence of perceived discomfort, I think there is an "alarm" occurring as sensitive regions like the tongue, gums, ears, and philtrum are being manipulated. I wonder if this is something which occurs in the brain, or if it begins and perhaps ends in the spinal cord. In that case, it may be the reaction to histamines being blocked, not the release of the histamines in the first place. This would fit with the general "tic" notion. Priority is given to the possible damage of a sensitive region.

 

[rhody]

Ok... spinal surgeon has no idea why this would work, beyond some vague notion of one input taking precedence over others

I'm definitely leaning towards the notion that this is an issue of pressure points: nerves, vascular pressure points, and maybe even bone. I wonder if digging into clavicle would have an effect, or a gentle massage of the brachial or femoral artery where it nears the surface. Even in the absence of perceived discomfort, I think there is an "alarm" occurring as sensitive regions like the tongue, gums, ears, and philtrum are being manipulated. I wonder if this is something which occurs in the brain, or if it begins and perhaps ends in the spinal cord. In that case, it may be the reaction to histamines being blocked, not the release of the histamines in the first place. This would fit with the general "tic" notion. Priority is given to the possible damage of a sensitive region.

My guess is that from studying synesthesia and now Brain Plasticity, that I believe that the lip sensory maps, and the histamine activation centers controlled in the brain lie close to one another, if the sensory lip brain maps generate a higher amplitude signal, it could diminish the sensory maps in the nose that provide that feedback histamine rush feeling you get before sneezing. Too bad you don't have any neurologist friends to ask. In any event whatever the truth turns out to be I for one would like a piece of it, hehe.

Rhody...

Edit:

Lisa:

Do you ever experience sneezing fits, and if so do the techniques described here work for you ?

 

[lisab]

My guess is that from studying synesthesia and now Brain Plasticity, that I bel;ieve that the lip sensory maps, and the histamine activation centers controlled in the brain lie close to one another, if the sensory lip brain maps generate a higher amplitude signal, it could diminish the sensory maps in the nose that provide that feedback histamine rush feeling you get before sneezing. Too bad you don't have any neurologist friends to ask. In any event whatever the truth turns out to be I for one would like a piece of it, hehe.

Rhody...

Edit:

Lisa:

Do you ever experience sneezing fits, and if so do the techniques described here work for you ?

My sneezes come in singles, and yes this technique is very effective in stopping them. However I rarely use it, since they aren't too disruptive.

 

[rhody]

My sneezes come in singles, and yes this technique is very effective in stopping them. However I rarely use it, since they aren't too disruptive.

Lisa,

Thanks, I probably wouldn't either, I am glad you are not prone to multiple histamine rushes that come in waves like I am. Now, if only I could somehow sense them before they became a real rush, and stop them, I would be really impressed.

I seem to have fairly good associative memory and can make connections of many different subjects small details, probably a sign of a healthy active left/right pre-frontal cortex. I can't help but imagine that having ADD and mild OCD may somehow have something to do with waves of histamine rushes, because each condition means that parts of my brain are overstimulated at times and well as some kind of escalating electrical and chemical feedback neural activity in the three OCD areas that I have mentioned in another post.

Sometimes my associations are valid and even surprise myself when I am right. Other times I find myself going down a lonely path to a dead end, but the fun for me is the research part and persistence necessary to stick with something until you discover something new or give up, having exhausted all reasonable options. The fun is in the journey and not the result, at least for me.

Eventually, I predict we will reach a consensus of why touching/shaking the lip stops a histamine rush that comes in waves, or for a single event. If Nismaratwork proves to his satisfaction that muscle spams can be stopped in a similar fashion that may give us another piece of the puzzle to add to a theory of why this condition exists.

Rhody...

 

[rhody]

Alright, for the last two day a pattern is emerging, in the morning between 7 - 9 am first histamine, slow build slow release cycle hits, I was able to stop it this morning with the usual one to two minute lip grab, shake routine. At night however, different story, usually sometime between 8 - 10 pm, the last two nights while posting on PF, can you say keyboard ewww... , the histamine rush is urgent, strong and cannot be stopped with same technique used in the am. I am convinced now that it has to do with the amount, period and release cycle of the histamine rush itself, other than the brain's adaptation to the grabbing/shaking (I know what you are thinking by now Lisa, don't go there... lol). I started to look up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histamine" and as usual feel a bit overwhelmed, which is normal. Turns out there are four types of histamine receptor's in the brain, a good start, but: I am thinking H1 receptor is mostly involved in these antic's. Any experts on histamine out there care to weigh in with knowledge, background, links would greatly be appreciated.

Type Location Function

H1 histamine receptor Found on smooth muscle, endothelium, and central nervous system tissue Causes vasodilation, bronchoconstriction, bronchial smooth muscle contraction, separation of endothelial cells (responsible for hives), and pain and itching due to insect stings; the primary receptors involved in allergic rhinitis symptoms and motion sickness; sleep regulation.
H2 histamine receptor Located on parietal cells Primarily stimulate gastric acid secretion
H3 histamine receptor Found on central nervous system and to a lesser extent peripheral nervous system tissue Decreased neurotransmitter release: histamine, acetylcholine, norepinephrine, serotonin
H4 histamine receptor Found primarily in the basophils and in the bone marrow. It is also found on thymus, small intestine, spleen, and colon. Plays a role in chemotaxis.

OK, a little more digging and my personal mystery deepens further:
I have been having trouble sleeping through the night for years, maybe my little histamine friends (err... should I say enemies have something to do with it)
Are there any tests you can do before you wake up to see if histamine is being released, I can tell you with 100% certainty, I never wake up sneezing.

It has been shown that histaminergic cells have the most wakefulness-related firing pattern of any neuronal type thus far recorded. They fire rapidly during waking, fire more slowly during periods of relaxation/tiredness and completely stop firing during REM and NREM (non-REM) sleep. Histaminergic cells can be recorded firing just before an animal shows signs of waking.

A little more probing, and Holy Crap ! (I promised after the synesthesia thread I wouldn't do this but I couldn't help it) Could this be one of the reasons why my OCD and worry are fading ? Replaced by a soothing histamine rush ! Are you freaking kidding me. I will take that any day of the week, now if I could only stop sneezing fits that would be great. If this is the case, I want to know how I made this transition over the past six months, was sustained focused attention and a feeling of accomplishment all that was necessary ? If so I wish I could bottle and sell it, but I can't !

While histamine has stimulatory effects upon neurons, it also has suppressive ones that protect against the susceptibility to convulsion, drug sensitization, denervation supersensitivity, ischemic lesions and stress.[6] It has also been suggested that histamine controls the mechanisms by which memories and learning are forgotten.

rhody...

 

[Coopster]

I am wondering aloud if there is a possible relationship between the ability of the lip squeezing to stop autonomic functions (sneezing) and the number of nerve endings that exist in the lip.

For those of us fortunate enough to have enjoyed passionate coitus, it is well known that the lips and ear lobes can become highly erogenous zones.

 

[nismaratwork]

I am wondering aloud if there is a possible relationship between the ability of the lip squeezing to stop autonomic functions (sneezing) and the number of nerve endings that exist in the lip.

For those of us fortunate enough to have enjoyed passionate coitus, it is well known that the lips and ear lobes can become highly erogenous zones.

It strikes me as likely, which is why I'm wondering about other pressure points, and whether only those with nervous involvement matter. Will an insult to a vascular pressure point have a similar effect?

One way to settle this could be done in private... simple stimulate the genitalia (yeah, I'm keeping this technical) and see if that is effective. Other possible regions could be behind the knees, the arch of the foot, and so forth. Hell, maybe this is a new way to get a little extra sex in, "Honey, I'm having an allergy attack, quick, to the bedroom/kitchen-tabel!" :)

 

[rhody]

More digging, and I find this http://www.rainbowminerals.net/histamine_factor.html" , first I am not so impressed, because it is from a vitamin store, but the background they present, seems to coincide somewhat to the last link I read on histamine, then, I find this:

foods high in folates (folic Acid) should be avoided. folic acid can cause a cascading histamine reaction... Folates are known to cause the release of histamines.

First red flag goes up, I have been taking folic acid supplements for over six months now, never aware that an increased level of histamines are released because of taking a daily dose, (400 mg), which could be contributing to sneezing fits. Then this:

Histamine makes the smooth muscles in the walls of the lungs, blood vessels, stomach, intestines and bladder contract. This contraction brings on a wide range of symptoms. Histamine in the lungs causes wheezing. Histamine also indirectly stimulates the production of thick, sticky mucus.

Histamine is the prime mediator in type 1 allergic reactions such as hay fever. Almost everyone has taken an antihistamine to treat hay fever and itching, to relieve nausea and vomiting or cold symptoms, or as an aid to sleep. The popularity of antihistamines is a mute testimony to the negative effects of histamine in the body. To get a good idea of what histamine can do, let us imagine the effects of an injection of a small amount.
Histamine carries its message to a large number of cells by attaching to a special receptor on the cells' surfaces. There are two kinds of histamine receptors, H1 and H2. The H1 and H2 receptors both receive histamine as a messenger, but the meaning taken by the different receptors is different. H1 receptors tend to produce the symptoms already listed and activate the allergic reaction. H2 receptors tend to act as negative feedback receptors and turn the allergic reaction off. H2 receptors also exclusively activate the acid-producing, parietal cells of the stomach lining.

Histamine dilates blood vessels and acts with prostaglandins, PGE2 and PGI2, to produce the early swelling, redness and heat of an inflammatory response. The same mediators may sensitize nerve endings to other pain-producing mediators such as bradykinin. An initial burst of mediator activity will often set a series of cell responses in motion, which will amplify and prolong disturbances for days or weeks. Once inflammation is established in tissues by immune cell invasion and mediator release, recovery may take several weeks.

finally, this:

A survey in 1994 showed that 72% of women and 42% of men aged between 19 and 50, and 89% of females aged 16-18 years do not achieve the RNI for magnesium. Low levels of magnesium in the diet and in our bodies increase susceptibility to a variety of diseases, including heart disease, high blood pressure, kidney stones, cancer, insomnia, PMS, and menstrual cramps. Signs and symptoms of magnesium deficiency are fatigue, mental confusion, irritability, weakness, heart disturbance, problems in nervous conduction and muscle contraction, muscle cramps, loss of appetite, insomnia and predisposition to stress.

Now this article has my FULL attention, because we are talking about muscle spasms, the release of histamines play a major role in the condition. And my chronic almost like clockwork morning and evening sneezing fits, can you see where this is going !?

Four days ago I decide to stop taking folic acid, 400 mg, and add magnesium 250 mg twice daily, and I can't say with 100% certainty, but I have not had a sneezing fit since.
It could be A: something in the environment changed, and the sneezing fits stopped. B: taking Folic acid was contributing to histamine rush, removing it caused the histamine rush to stop in combination with the addition of magnesium supplement. C: I plan to wait a week or so, if still no sneezing fits, I will stop taking the magnesium, and start the folic acid once more, if the sneezing fits return morning/night then I will be pretty certain that the folic acid made it worse. Nice to know that excess histamine's can cause muscle spasms as well, which would explain why lessening histamine rush helps in relieving them. The real test would be to have someone give me a placebo, one for folic acid, the other for magnesium and see what the results were, however, that would not be practical.

From the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histamine" article with four classes of histamines receptors involved in many areas of the body's functions, sleep being one of them:

Sleep regulation
Histamine is released as a neurotransmitter. The cell bodies of neurons which release histamine are found in the posterior hypothalamus, in various tuberomammillary nuclei. From here, these histaminergic neurons project throughout the brain, to the cortex through the medial forebrain bundle. Histaminergic action is known to modulate sleep. Classically, antihistamines (H1 histamine receptor antagonists) produce sleep. Likewise, destruction of histamine releasing neurons, or inhibition of histamine synthesis leads to an inability to maintain vigilance. Finally, H3 receptor antagonists increase wakefulness.

It has been shown that histaminergic cells have the most wakefulness-related firing pattern of any neuronal type thus far recorded. They fire rapidly during waking, fire more slowly during periods of relaxation/tiredness and completely stop firing during REM and NREM (non-REM) sleep. Histaminergic cells can be recorded firing just before an animal shows signs of waking.

I have excess calcium which is harmful, and magnesium helps to metabolize it properly: I have a friend who under a Dr's care has been prescribed magnesium for her severe allergies, so I know I am on the right track. See quote below from the first link at the beginning of this post:

The human body needs water-soluble magnesium to utilize calcium properly. Your body needs about two parts magnesium for every one part calcium for best antioxidant effects.* If you have proper magnesium levels, the body can use the calcium it needs and discharge the rest. Most people have more calcium in their diets than they need but an absolute shortage of magnesium. Of even more concern is the fact that the average American diet makes very little allowance for magnesium. It is of concern that large doses of calcium are currently being promoted in our diets without proper magnesium supplementation.

Rhody...

 

[nismaratwork]

Good read Rhody, I have to think about this one.

Now, the results of my workout:

1 NASTY charlie horse, and no effect regardless of what was pinched or prodded. I drank some gatorade, and drank water, and all is well. It may be that a significant electrolyte imbalance and workout designed to induce cramping is not what this would work for anyway, so no proof against the method... just no confirmation. Ah well.

 

[lisab]

Good read Rhody, I have to think about this one.

Now, the results of my workout:

1 NASTY charlie horse, and no effect regardless of what was pinched or prodded. I drank some gatorade, and drank water, and all is well. It may be that a significant electrolyte imbalance and workout designed to induce cramping is not what this would work for anyway, so no proof against the method... just no confirmation. Ah well.

Ouch! Way to take one for the team, nismar! Like I said in the OP, I rarely get full-on cramps, but I know they hurt.

 

[nismaratwork]

Ouch! Way to take one for the team, nismar! Like I said in the OP, I rarely get full-on cramps, but I know they hurt.

I felt "less than fresh" for an hour or so, but the acute pain was transient. I'm wondering now if a little electric current from a therapeutic "stim" device might be used to set off a series of tics. Once turned off, if the tics persist, perhaps this attempt might be employed. As it happens, I have a good friend who's a physical therapist, and she'd probably join in as well as some of her staff. Sample size, here we come! I'll let you all know if I can do this, and how it pans out.

 

[Moonbear]

Sometimes it takes 30 seconds or so of pressing, and sometimes it only works when the pressure is applied.

Have you often had muscle tics/spasms that last longer than 30 seconds? That sounds like about the same amount of time for them to just go away on their own.

For controlling sneezing, it makes more sense. The nerves in the upper lip are branches of the same nerve root as those supplying the nose (same reason why many people will notice their nose and upper lip goes numb when the dentist numbs their upper teeth for dental work).

 

[lisab]

Have you often had muscle tics/spasms that last longer than 30 seconds? That sounds like about the same amount of time for them to just go away on their own.

For controlling sneezing, it makes more sense. The nerves in the upper lip are branches of the same nerve root as those supplying the nose (same reason why many people will notice their nose and upper lip goes numb when the dentist numbs their upper teeth for dental work).

Oh they can last hours, sometimes days . I've had them all my life, I remember having them as a small child, even. I'm careful about my diet and even take vitamin supplements, and I'm certain it's not related to dehydration. I think I'm just prone to getting them.

When I learned of this technique I was thrilled!

 

[nismaratwork]

Oh they can last hours, sometimes days . I've had them all my life, I remember having them as a small child, even. I'm careful about my diet and even take vitamin supplements, and I'm certain it's not related to dehydration. I think I'm just prone to getting them.

When I learned of this technique I was thrilled!

Hmmm, if the question is not too intrusive, are these tics primarily in the small muscles of the face? If so, maybe this is all about stimulating cranial nerves and branches and Moonbear has said.

 

[lisab]

Hmmm, if the question is not too intrusive, are these tics primarily in the small muscles of the face? If so, maybe this is all about stimulating cranial nerves and branches and Moonbear has said.

They can be anywhere. The longest-lasting one was on my back, between the scapula, on the right side. The weirdest one was a lower abdominal muscle...sort reminded me of my daughter's kicking, when I was pregnant!

 

[nismaratwork]

Ok... I'm stumped... Moonbear?

 

[rhody]

OK, after two weeks on being off folic acid and using a magnesium supplement, I have had no sneezing fits, other than one today from a drippy nose, it stopped and no more fits. I will try adding folic acid again, and see if the fits come back, and stop the magnesium at the same time. It would be nice to conduct a double blind experiment and have a tablet of the same size shape of something that is benign to be 100% sure there is not some type of psychosomatic effect, but I won't be able to do this.

Funny thing happened on a plane flight home the other day, two people in front of me about 4 to 6 feet away had two or three sneezing fits, and after each one I felt the histamine levels rising, so much so that I used the lip squeeze/shake routine which suppressed it each time. I know for sure that yawning is contagious, but I never have heard of sneezing through the sudden buildup of histamine before. Has anyone ever had this happen ?

Lisa,

What you describe, persistent tics for extended periods is very weird, are you sure you were not possessed (lol) at the time ? Are you sure you were not dehydrated and did not know it ?

Rhody...

 

[lisab]

OK, after two weeks on being off folic acid and using a magnesium supplement, I have had no sneezing fits, other than one today from a drippy nose, it stopped and no more fits. I will try adding folic acid again, and see if the fits come back, and stop the magnesium at the same time. It would be nice to conduct a double blind experiment and have a tablet of the same size shape of something that is benign to be 100% sure there is not some type of psychosomatic effect, but I won't be able to do this.

Funny thing happened on a plane flight home the other day, two people in front of me about 4 to 6 feet away had two or three sneezing fits, and after each one I felt the histamine levels rising, so much so that I used the lip squeeze/shake routine which suppressed it each time. I know for sure that yawning is contagious, but I never have heard of sneezing through the sudden buildup of histamine before. Has anyone ever had this happen ?

Lisa,

What you describe, persistent tics for extended periods is very weird, are you sure you were not possessed (lol) at the time ? Are you sure you were not dehydrated and did not know it ?

Rhody...

Well, I'm very conscientious about fluid intake. I exercise often so it's always at the forefront of my mine. But I can't rule it out of course.

Possession...hmm, maybe a demon is following me around and poke-poke-poking me, haha .

 

[rhody]

Well, I'm very conscientious about fluid intake. I exercise often so it's always at the forefront of my mine. But I can't rule it out of course.

Possession...hmm, maybe a demon is following me around and poke-poke-poking me, haha .

No, I was referring to when you were pregnant... lol The worst cramps I ever remember is when hiking for six hours and being short on liquids, it just plain sucks. There is nothing you can do about it until you find a source of water.

Rhody...

 

[lisab]

No, I was referring to when you were pregnant... lol The worst cramps I ever remember is when hiking for six hours and being short on liquids, it just plain sucks. There is nothing you can do about it until you find a source of water.

Rhody...

Ah... that's different!

I don't remember the tics being any better or worse while I was pregnant. Well that was 19 years ago, details are fuzzy now.

Great that you solved your histamine problem, btw!

 

[rhody]

I stayed off folic acid and added magnesium supplement for two weeks and was fine, no histamine rushes, no repeated sneezing fits. So I decided two days ago to stop taking the magnesium and start with the folic acid once again (400 IU) and the first day, major feeling of upset stomach within an hour of taking it (with food BTW), more drip and mucous buildup, no sneezing fits though.

Second day, major sneezing fits, and a feeling if a histamine rush before and after the fits, the drip is stronger as well, as is the irritation to my stomach, so much so that a thought I was going to cough up a hairball lol (figure of speech) on my way to work.

I was planning on staying on the folic acid for two weeks, and now am almost positive that the folic acid is the "root cause" of my problems, all of which have been dogging me last winter, spring, and now summer while taking this.

I don't want to suffer anymore and I will switch back to magnesium only starting tomorrow. A secondary effect from having less histamine in my system is not feeling that nice rush when listening to music or when I get excitied about an idea, but I can live with that, the "downside" far outweighs the "upside" as far as I am concerned. I hate the upset stomach, sneezing fits, and coughing and retching... (I know, this is funny, in a sick sort of way). Gak Gak...

Rhody...

P.S. (Folic acid -> leading to excess histamine production) is a contributing factor in experiencing "Musical Chills", Fuzzy's thread at least for me. Others who wish to act as human guinea pigs may want to try it and report back. I am done however, I have enough proof for my particular case.

 

[nismaratwork]

I stayed off folic acid and added magnesium supplement for two weeks and was fine, no histamine rushes, no repeated sneezing fits. So I decided two days ago to stop taking the magnesium and start with the folic acid once again (400 IU) and the first day, major feeling of upset stomach within an hour of taking it (with food BTW), more drip and mucous buildup, no sneezing fits though.

Second day, major sneezing fits, and a feeling if a histamine rush before and after the fits, the drip is stronger as well, as is the irritation to my stomach, so much so that a thought I was going to cough up a hairball lol (figure of speech) on my way to work.

I was planning on staying on the folic acid for two weeks, and now am almost positive that the folic acid is the "root cause" of my problems, all of which have been dogging me last winter, spring, and now summer while taking this.

I don't want to suffer anymore and I will switch back to magnesium only starting tomorrow. A secondary effect from having less histamine in my system is not feeling that nice rush when listening to music or when I get excitied about an idea, but I can live with that, the "downside" far outweighs the "upside" as far as I am concerned. I hate the upset stomach, sneezing fits, and coughing and retching... (I know, this is funny, in a sick sort of way). Gak Gak...

Rhody...

P.S. (Folic acid -> leading to excess histamine production) is a contributing factor in experiencing "Musical Chills", Fuzzy's thread at least for me. Others who wish to act as human guinea pigs may want to try it and report back. I am done however, I have enough proof for my particular case.

Well, I don't sneeze enough to be a good guinea pig here, sorry. :(

I'm glad that you're calibrating your diet to better address your sneezing however, it sounds like a serious drag.