Damp dirt under great, sudden, pressure, acts like liquid?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the behavior of damp dirt under sudden pressure, particularly in the context of a personal experience involving the use of a sledgehammer on concrete covered by damp soil. Participants explore the phenomenon of soil behaving like a liquid under pressure and relate it to concepts such as shear thinning and soil liquefaction.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes an experience where damp dirt appeared to turn into a liquid when compressed by a sledgehammer, suggesting that dry dirt would not have produced the same effect without significantly higher pressures.
  • Another participant proposes that the observed behavior could be an example of shear thinning, where a material's viscosity decreases under stress.
  • A different viewpoint highlights the risks of building on dirt, noting that both damp and dry dirt can behave similarly under seismic conditions, potentially leading to structural failures.
  • A participant shares an anecdote about using vibroseis trucks, explaining that at certain frequencies, soil can behave like a liquid, causing visible ripples and movement in the ground.
  • One participant mentions researching "soil liquefaction" and finds parallels between the conditions described and their own experience, indicating a desire to understand the physics involved.
  • A suggestion is made to demonstrate the phenomenon using corn starch as a physical example of similar behavior.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various interpretations of the phenomenon, with some proposing specific scientific concepts while others share anecdotal evidence. No consensus is reached on the exact mechanisms or implications of the behavior observed.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference concepts such as shear thinning and soil liquefaction, but the discussion does not resolve the underlying assumptions or conditions necessary for these phenomena to occur. The relationship between pressure, moisture content, and soil behavior remains complex and is not fully explored.

Spinnor
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I was digging a trench next to a building today so rain water would not back up to the buildings wall. Most of the material was soil but there were some large chunks of concrete. The largest chunk of concrete that was too heavy to move was pryed up and supported on the left and right sides with smaller stones as well as being supported by the ground. The idea was to beat the concrete in the middle with a sledge hammer and break it into smaller pieces. About a half to an inch layer of damp dirt lay on the top of the concrete. I swung a 20 pound sledge hammer with good effort and did little to the concrete but I compressed the dirt to such an extent that the dirt seemed to turn into a liquid and splattered with great velocity in a narrow fan shaped jets whose velocity was mostly perpendicular to the sledge velocity just before impact. After the shock of being sprayed by high velocity dirt wore off, subsequent blows to the concrete broke it up.

Was the damp dirt changed into a liquid like material by the hammer blow? If the dirt were dry I don't think the same effect would have occurred (unless under much higher pressures?)

Thanks for any help!
 
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That could be an example of shear thinning. A liquid with solid elements in it is a great way to get that effect.
 
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It's also an example of why buildings collapse when they're based on dirt, and there's an earthquake. Dry dirt does the same thing - but in your situation dry dirt wouldn't have held its shape for long enough to get hit by a hammer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thixotropy
 
When I was a young man, I took a piece of equipment out to a land seismic crew using vibroseis trucks.
When the sweep frequency passes the modulus of elasticity of the weathering layer
of the soil, the ground looked like it went liquid.
A ripple formed and shook trees down a fence row as far as I could see.
I later wrote a patent application for using similar constructive interference waves
for clearing land mines. My company published rather than patented the idea.
My point is that at the right frequency the ground does in fact go into a somewhat
liquid state.
 
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johnbbahm said:
When I was a young man, I took a piece of equipment out to a land seismic crew using vibroseis trucks.
When the sweep frequency passes the modulus of elasticity of the weathering layer
of the soil, the ground looked like it went liquid.
A ripple formed and shook trees down a fence row as far as I could see.
I later wrote a patent application for using similar constructive interference waves
for clearing land mines. My company published rather than patented the idea.
My point is that at the right frequency the ground does in fact go into a somewhat
liquid state.

I have googled "soil liquefaction" and the required conditions look similar to my situation. Simple physics but I'm still trying to wrap my head around it.

Thanks to all for the replies!
 
You can make a great demo of this with corn starch... very effective physical example.
 

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