News Dan Rather / CBS using forged Bush related National Guard documents?

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oxymoron

I've always liked "60 Minutes" and this (apparent) disregard for journalistic ethics (no pun intended) is surprising to me. Now that's just plain stupid.

I would suggest that the use of the words "journalistic ethics" in conjunction with CBS's "60 Minutes" program is really an oxymoron.

 

[JohnDubYa]

The lack of journalistic ethics doesn't surprise me. The rank idiocy does.

 

[russ_watters]

I would suggest that the use of the words "journalistic ethics" in conjunction with CBS's "60 Minutes" program is really an oxymoron.

That's why I said "no pun intended." Supposedly, there is such a thing, but its rarely actually followed if it gets in the way of other goals.

The lack of journalistic ethics doesn't surprise me. The rank idiocy does.

Ehh, I am a little surprised (or perhaps I just combine the two).

 

[Tigers2B1]

Well, to be fair, the "documents might be authentic" advocates are really making their best efforts. Grasping at eachh and every possibility. So --- there seems to be one model of 1972 vintage typewriter that MIGHT have had the wherewithal to have typed the “Killian documents” – MAYBE - but probably not. For argument's sake let's assume it did. Let the straw stay for the moment. The IBM Composer is the typewriter in question. Will the IBM Composer save Dan Rather? Well, first let's note that the Composer had a $4,000 price tag (in 1970 dollars), the price of a nice, new 1972 automobile. However Mrs. Knox, Col Killian's secretary is on the record as saying that she used a conventional, standard issue typewriter during that period and that she typed Col Killian's documents. She didn't use this $4,000 typewriter. So, it seems, for the IBM Composer to be the culprit, the deceased Col Killian would have had to use the Composer --- all out of sight. How he got this typewriter and why, since he couldn't type - is left for us to figure out. The article below also points out that it is not reasonable to conclude that a small National Guard Office needed, nor could they could justify a $4,000 typewriter in 1972. However -- IF that National Guard office did have one of these IBM Composer typewriters and Killian used it only when typing memos critical of Bush – ($800 a memo? – you do the math) it would have been, not only an expensive endeavor, but also a labor-intensive job with all the measuring and type-ball changes involved. Questions of why he would do it that way and why the office would have had such a machine (a machine which was unknown to Mrs. Knox, Col Killian’s secretary at the time) ALL remains a mystery. See the quotes below --

…The precisely centered text, the superscript "th" and the proportionally spaced Times New Roman font are all obvious tip-offs. Further analysis of word wrapping and line spacing reveals a perfect match. Anyone using Microsoft Word's default settings and a copier for "aging"can reproduce the memos exactly. A high-resolution comparison can be viewed at mysite.verizon.net/vze6vxcr.

Did a typewriter exist that could mimic these features? Some suggest that an IBM Selectric Composer could have been used, theoretically, to type the memos. But with a $4,000 price tag, it's unlikely that a small National Guard office would have had one. Assuming it did, creating the memos would have involved laborious manual procedures, such as detailed measuring and type-ball changing -- a dubious proposition for a man whose widow says he couldn't type.

Greg Swann, writes that "I did work on the IBM Selectric Composer in the '70s, both the stand-alone model and the magnetic tape version. ... [N]ot even an experienced Selectric Composer operator could have produced those memos, nor a Linotype compositor, nor any other typographer using '70s-epoch equipment. This is not subject to debate by rational men. The Killian memos are forgeries."

http://www.cornellsun.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/09/14/41465b214495d

IMHO, CBS loses more credibility with each day they refuse to produce the source(s) of these documents.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Here is a funny response to the article:

Dan Rather is a saint. I understand he will soon release the Killian memos in their original PowerPoint presentation form.

BTW, has anyone bothered to check to see if there really was a P.O. Box 34567 in Houston in 1972?

If you have, call me at my home number (123)456-7890

 

[JohnDubYa]

Okay, now that it is 99.999% certain that the documents are forgeries, how about some more questions?

1. Who supplied the documents to CBS?
2. Did the DNC ever have possession of the documents?
3. Did CBS contact Lt. Col. Killian's stepson before airing the story?
4. If so, why weren't his views included in the story?
5. If not, why not?
6. Did CBS contact Lt. Col. Killian's former wife before airing the story?
7. If so, why weren't her views included in the story?
8. If not, why not?
9. Did CBS contact Lt. Col. Killian's former secretary before airing the story?
10. If so, why weren't her views included in the story?
11. If not, why not?
12. Would CBS be willing to disclose its source if the documents are proven forgeries?

 

[Robert Zaleski]

The lack of journalistic ethics doesn't surprise me. The rank idiocy does.

Blind arrogance gives birth to stupidity.

 

[russ_watters]

Update: Congressional Republicans are demanding a retraction and disclosure of the source and accusing CBS of fraud and interfering with the electoral process. http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-09-15-cbs-guard_x.htm

 

[Dayle Record]

I conjecture that these files came from another intelligence agency that did use an expensive typewriter for data entry. I bet these files are files that were kept on Killian, and his reporting regarding George W Bush's service records. George's Dad was rather highly placed in the intelligence business at one time. I bet anyone that said squat about the family had huge verbatim files.

 

[GENIERE]

According to a Washington Post (Dobbs) reporter today… the documents were faxed from “Kinkos” in Abilene, TX, 20 miles from the residence of Bill Burkett. Burkett left the Guards in 1998 and filed a lawsuit against them, but lost the suit. Since then he has been hospitalized for depression and has been a Bush and Guard “basher” ever since

 

[JohnDubYa]

Dayle, would you mind repeating what you just said? I want to see if it is just as nonsensical the second time around.

 

[JohnDubYa]

According to a Washington Post (Dobbs) reporter today… the documents were faxed from “Kinkos” in Abilene, TX, 20 miles from the residence of Bill Burkett. Burkett left the Guards in 1998 and filed a lawsuit against them, but lost the suit. Since then he has been hospitalized for depression and has been a Bush and Guard “basher” ever since

If this is true (and right now I it looks no more ridiculous than anything else I have heard surrounding the documents) then someone may as well park a U-Haul outside Dan Rather's house.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Prediction: Whoever sent in the documents will produce new ones where...

1. Kerning will be turned off.

2. The Courier font will be chosen.

3. Factual mistakes will be corrected.

Then Dan Rather will then state that he has the originals but he doesn't want any more controversy, so in the best interests of the country he is placing them inside a safe. After all, he has no enmity towards the Bush family, right? He is an Independent, right?

 

[Gza]

1. Who supplied the documents to CBS?
2. Did the DNC ever have possession of the documents?
3. Did CBS contact Lt. Col. Killian's stepson before airing the story?
4. If so, why weren't his views included in the story?
5. If not, why not?
6. Did CBS contact Lt. Col. Killian's former wife before airing the story?
7. If so, why weren't her views included in the story?
8. If not, why not?
9. Did CBS contact Lt. Col. Killian's former secretary before airing the story?
10. If so, why weren't her views included in the story?
11. If not, why not?
12. Would CBS be willing to disclose its source if the documents are proven forgeries?

I think that people are starting to stare too closely at the trees, rather than seeing the forest. The important issue at hand is Bush's war record. It seems rather convienient for the Republicans to skip right past that and go straight for the messenger. Whether or not the documents are forged(they probably are), that doesn't change the fact that Bush went AWOL.

 

[JohnDubYa]

It seems rather convienient for the Republicans to skip right past that and go straight for the messenger. Whether or not the documents are forged(they probably are), that doesn't change the fact that Bush went AWOL.

First of all, it is not a fact.

Second, how is Bush supposed to counter forged documents? I think the Bush people are behaving smart and taking the high road. Dan Rather hung himself. Why not just sit on the sidelines with a soda and pop corn and watch with amusement? That's what I would do.

Bush has said before that he was not AWOL. That is all the explaining he feels he needs to do. And if you feel somehow that isn't good enough, don't vote for him.

 

[Tigers2B1]

Seems the CBS and Rather "armor" (so to speak) is beginning to crack --– From the Houston paper –

…CBS anchor Dan Rather acknowledged for the first time Wednesday night that there are serious questions about the authenticity of the documents.

Yet, I did have to laugh when I got to this part of Rather’s admission

…"If the documents are not what we were led to believe, I'd like to break that story," Rather said Wednesday night. "Any time I'm wrong, I want to be right out front and say, 'Folks, this is what went wrong and how it went wrong.”'

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2798115

 

[Tigers2B1]

Judging from Rather statement last night, I suspect that Rather and CBS MIGHT be ready to 'begin' the long and winding admission process. But it will be a slow an painful process and I’m absolutly certain Rather and CBS will be looking for ways out all along the admission rollercoaster. IF Rather follows through and finally admits that these documents are very likely forgeries - Rather and CBS have no obligation to the person who intentionally mislead us and CBS. CBS should then give us that name.

 

[Tigers2B1]

Let me add that I think that Rather and CBS will use the Knox interview as their way out of this mess. I can't think of any NEW evidence that has just recently come to light that has caused Rather and CBS to NOW state that these documents may very well be fakes. This is almost a 180 from their position just a day and a half ago. Note that they put her on TV last night after her statement came out that while the documents were fakes, they expressed the sentiment of Col Killian. There are a few things I just don’t get about what Ms. Knox said however --- or at least the part of the interview that CBS aired.

Knox made the statement that whoever produced the fake documents probably did this so they would be caught. How in the hell does THAT work? In what fantasy world do you "retype" documents for fear of being ID'ed.

Second --- in one spot of the interview (that CBS showed us) Knox said that Bush acted as if he "was above" everyone else and that the pressure received from Bush Sr.'s influence made it difficult to management the National Guard post. YET, in another segment of the piece, Knox says that Bush was "very gentlemanly" and she wondered 'what fine people the Bush family must be to produce such a son.' OK --- let me get this straight - Bush acted like he was "above everyone else" and the pressure from the Bush family influence made it nigh impossible to command ----- YET Bush came from fine family and was "very gentlemanly." Shortterm memory issues - Knox??

Third, the CBS spot doesn’t mention this for some reason but Knox is a long time Democrat who is one record as saying that Bush is ‘unfit for command’ - or some such. So - let's look at what we have - the partisans lining up – with the Killian family saying that Col Killian liked Bush and Knox saying he didn't. Fine. What they all agree on is that the documents are fakes. After hearing Knox’s statement to the Houston paper the other day CBS decided to make a call. Hence the Rather admission that these are probably faked documents ----- since Knox has already stated the obvious and indicated that they are forged National Guard docs. CBS and Rather can now line up with Knox on this issue. CBS is attempting to use Knox as a 'way out' after being exposed for what they are. A partisan tool.

 

[Robert Zaleski]

Dan Rather thinks you can be both a liar and an honest man. http://www.888webtoday.com/skousen5.html

 

[GENIERE]

CBS is following the lead of the NY Times; fiction is fact if it conforms to one’s opinion. The dramatic and rapid drop in the network’s ratings (reruns of “The Simpson’s” get better ratings in NYC) reflects the opinion of Joe Average.

 

[Dayle Record]

I conjecture that these files came from another intelligence agency that did use an expensive typewriter for data entry. I bet these files are files that were kept on Killian, and his reporting regarding George W Bush's service records. George's Dad was rather highly placed in the intelligence business at one time. I bet anyone that said squat about the family had huge verbatim files. Those files came to light, most likely, and no they don't look like the originals, because they aren't.

John Dubya, I repeated this as you asked.

Facts are, George W. Bush entered the Guard to avoid Viet Nam, and then avoided the Guard as well. These facts are indisputible. Socially well placed white men, frequently survive war in safe havens, while poor men, and men of color die heroe's deaths. Sometimes socially well placed white men distinguish themselves in time of war, as in the case of John Kerry, and many others. I think the ability to wage peace is the paramount qualification a president needs. And waging peace is what has to happen. The United States cannot behave like the Christian Borg, and expect the world to like it. Americans have the right to know the histories of their leaders, and George W. Bush's military records were destroyed. That is a crime, lest anyone forget.

 

[JohnDubYa]

John Dubya, I repeated this as you asked.

Thanks. And I was right... your logic makes no more sense the second time around.

Facts are, George W. Bush entered the Guard to avoid Viet Nam, and then avoided the Guard as well. These facts are indisputible.

Truth by Blatant Assertion. This level of Kindergarten logic may work on some people, but I'm not going to buy it. State your (ahem) "indisputible" proof.

Socially well placed white men, frequently survive war in safe havens, while poor men, and men of color die heroe's deaths.

If you listen carefully, you can hear the Battle Hymn of the Republic being hummed in the background.

Sometimes socially well placed white men distinguish themselves in time of war, as in the case of John Kerry, and many others. I think the ability to wage peace is the paramount qualification a president needs. And waging peace is what has to happen. The United States cannot behave like the Christian Borg, and expect the world to like it.

Holy cow, we're acting like Christian Borg? I had never thought of putting it that way. Now that I think of it, we are acting like Christian Borg. Well, this puts a new light on things. Maybe Bush has acted rash after all, just like Christian Borg would have. So what do we have to do so that we don't act like Christian Borg? And just who is Christian Borg?

Americans have the right to know the histories of their leaders, and George W. Bush's military records were destroyed. That is a crime, lest anyone forget.

Were the records destroyed by Christian Borg? If so, then he is truly a scoundrel, and I can see why we shouldn't act like Christian Borg.

 

[Gokul43201]

Woohoo, a right wing orgy, I see.

<don't mind me...I'm already gone>

 

[Dayle Record]

Kindergarden assertion? A matter of record, is not a kindergarden assertion. The military records of GW Bush were disappeared, then recently even more disappeared for good measure. That is a matter of public record.

Politics is never a nice discussion these days, unless it goes right along Republican Party Lines, then everyone is polite. If discussion strays from the speaking points, then it gets nasty.

Kindergarden assertion/Script Boy.

 

[FaverWillets]

Kindergarden assertion? A matter of record, is not a kindergarden assertion. The military records of GW Bush were disappeared, then recently even more disappeared for good measure. That is a matter of public record.

Politics is never a nice discussion these days, unless it goes right along Republican Party Lines, then everyone is polite. If discussion strays from the speaking points, then it gets nasty.

Kindergarden assertion/Script Boy.

Easy now... looks like someone pushed your buttons. It happened to me in this thread too. I apologized yesterday to the person I over reacted with. I have not seen a reply from him yet, so I won't know what he and others in this thread are really made of until the day is past. In the meantime I hope you step back and take a series of deep breaths and ask yourself, as I did, just what your intentions in this thread are? Are you trying to change their opinions to fit yours as I finally realized I was? Or, are you just angry like this all the time?

It is an established fact that this Presidential election is polarized. I prefer to avoid hanging around with people who see it my way exclusively. One cannot hope to grow much by staying almost exclusively in a familiar and friendly environment.

 

[FaverWillets]

Dan Rather thinks you can be both a liar and an honest man. http://www.888webtoday.com/skousen5.html

Maybe he should change his name to...say... Dan Janus Rather.

 

[Tigers2B1]

Below are links to one of the CBS docs, an exact copy of that CBS doc redone in MS WORD, and the last is a link to that CBS doc with the MS WORD doc overlaid. Note that faxing and photocopying may have caused some ‘blooming’ of the letters in the CBS doc which seem to appear again in the overlay.

The original suspect document from CBS

http://www.mirthless.org/forgery/aug-18-1973-memo.gif


The document retyped in MS WORD

http://www.mirthless.org/forgery/aug1873-pdf-word.gif


An overlay of the two – MS WORD over the CBS document


http://www.mirthless.org/forgery/aug1873-pdf-overlay.gif


You judge.

 

[kat]

Kindergarden assertion? A matter of record, is not a kindergarden assertion. The military records of GW Bush were disappeared, then recently even more disappeared for good measure. That is a matter of public record.
.

erm..."disapeared" and "even more disappeared" ?

Why don't we cut through the fustian charade and just get to the straight talking facts eh?

Facts are, George W. Bush entered the Guard to avoid Viet Nam, and then avoided the Guard as well.

Why don't you start with backing this up with facts...you know dates, records and links. Oh, and please...if you link to the Rathergate memo's expect to be heckled.

 

[Tigers2B1]

I conjecture that these files came from another intelligence agency that did use an expensive typewriter for data entry. I bet these files are files that were kept on Killian, and his reporting regarding George W Bush's service records. George's Dad was rather highly placed in the intelligence business at one time. I bet anyone that said squat about the family had huge verbatim files. Those files came to light, most likely, and no they don't look like the originals, because they aren't.

Damn Dayle, if I were a conspiracy theorist – I’d disown ya! Did you lose a bet or something?

 

[FaverWillets]

Judging from Rather statement last night, I suspect that Rather and CBS MIGHT be ready to 'begin' the long and winding admission process. But it will be a slow an painful process and I’m absolutly certain Rather and CBS will be looking for ways out all along the admission rollercoaster. IF Rather follows through and finally admits that these documents are very likely forgeries - Rather and CBS have no obligation to the person who intentionally mislead us and CBS. CBS should then give us that name.

If so it will be highly reminescent of Rush Limbaughs laughable "admission." People are stupid and corrupt on both sides of the fence.