Dan Rather / CBS using forged Bush related National Guard documents?

[JohnDubYa]

Okay, now that it is 99.999% certain that the documents are forgeries, how about some more questions?

1. Who supplied the documents to CBS?
2. Did the DNC ever have possession of the documents?
3. Did CBS contact Lt. Col. Killian's stepson before airing the story?
4. If so, why weren't his views included in the story?
5. If not, why not?
6. Did CBS contact Lt. Col. Killian's former wife before airing the story?
7. If so, why weren't her views included in the story?
8. If not, why not?
9. Did CBS contact Lt. Col. Killian's former secretary before airing the story?
10. If so, why weren't her views included in the story?
11. If not, why not?
12. Would CBS be willing to disclose its source if the documents are proven forgeries?

 

[Robert Zaleski]

The lack of journalistic ethics doesn't surprise me. The rank idiocy does.

Blind arrogance gives birth to stupidity.

 

[russ_watters]

Update: Congressional Republicans are demanding a retraction and disclosure of the source and accusing CBS of fraud and interfering with the electoral process. http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-09-15-cbs-guard_x.htm

 

[Dayle Record]

I conjecture that these files came from another intelligence agency that did use an expensive typewriter for data entry. I bet these files are files that were kept on Killian, and his reporting regarding George W Bush's service records. George's Dad was rather highly placed in the intelligence business at one time. I bet anyone that said squat about the family had huge verbatim files.

 

[GENIERE]

According to a Washington Post (Dobbs) reporter today… the documents were faxed from “Kinkos” in Abilene, TX, 20 miles from the residence of Bill Burkett. Burkett left the Guards in 1998 and filed a lawsuit against them, but lost the suit. Since then he has been hospitalized for depression and has been a Bush and Guard “basher” ever since

 

[JohnDubYa]

Dayle, would you mind repeating what you just said? I want to see if it is just as nonsensical the second time around.

 

[JohnDubYa]

According to a Washington Post (Dobbs) reporter today… the documents were faxed from “Kinkos” in Abilene, TX, 20 miles from the residence of Bill Burkett. Burkett left the Guards in 1998 and filed a lawsuit against them, but lost the suit. Since then he has been hospitalized for depression and has been a Bush and Guard “basher” ever since

If this is true (and right now I it looks no more ridiculous than anything else I have heard surrounding the documents) then someone may as well park a U-Haul outside Dan Rather's house.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Prediction: Whoever sent in the documents will produce new ones where...

1. Kerning will be turned off.

2. The Courier font will be chosen.

3. Factual mistakes will be corrected.

Then Dan Rather will then state that he has the originals but he doesn't want any more controversy, so in the best interests of the country he is placing them inside a safe. After all, he has no enmity towards the Bush family, right? He is an Independent, right?

 

[Gza]

1. Who supplied the documents to CBS?
2. Did the DNC ever have possession of the documents?
3. Did CBS contact Lt. Col. Killian's stepson before airing the story?
4. If so, why weren't his views included in the story?
5. If not, why not?
6. Did CBS contact Lt. Col. Killian's former wife before airing the story?
7. If so, why weren't her views included in the story?
8. If not, why not?
9. Did CBS contact Lt. Col. Killian's former secretary before airing the story?
10. If so, why weren't her views included in the story?
11. If not, why not?
12. Would CBS be willing to disclose its source if the documents are proven forgeries?

I think that people are starting to stare too closely at the trees, rather than seeing the forest. The important issue at hand is Bush's war record. It seems rather convienient for the Republicans to skip right past that and go straight for the messenger. Whether or not the documents are forged(they probably are), that doesn't change the fact that Bush went AWOL.

 

[JohnDubYa]

It seems rather convienient for the Republicans to skip right past that and go straight for the messenger. Whether or not the documents are forged(they probably are), that doesn't change the fact that Bush went AWOL.

First of all, it is not a fact.

Second, how is Bush supposed to counter forged documents? I think the Bush people are behaving smart and taking the high road. Dan Rather hung himself. Why not just sit on the sidelines with a soda and pop corn and watch with amusement? That's what I would do.

Bush has said before that he was not AWOL. That is all the explaining he feels he needs to do. And if you feel somehow that isn't good enough, don't vote for him.

 

[Tigers2B1]

Seems the CBS and Rather "armor" (so to speak) is beginning to crack --– From the Houston paper –

…CBS anchor Dan Rather acknowledged for the first time Wednesday night that there are serious questions about the authenticity of the documents.

Yet, I did have to laugh when I got to this part of Rather’s admission

…"If the documents are not what we were led to believe, I'd like to break that story," Rather said Wednesday night. "Any time I'm wrong, I want to be right out front and say, 'Folks, this is what went wrong and how it went wrong.”'

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2798115

 

[Tigers2B1]

Judging from Rather statement last night, I suspect that Rather and CBS MIGHT be ready to 'begin' the long and winding admission process. But it will be a slow an painful process and I’m absolutly certain Rather and CBS will be looking for ways out all along the admission rollercoaster. IF Rather follows through and finally admits that these documents are very likely forgeries - Rather and CBS have no obligation to the person who intentionally mislead us and CBS. CBS should then give us that name.

 

[Tigers2B1]

Let me add that I think that Rather and CBS will use the Knox interview as their way out of this mess. I can't think of any NEW evidence that has just recently come to light that has caused Rather and CBS to NOW state that these documents may very well be fakes. This is almost a 180 from their position just a day and a half ago. Note that they put her on TV last night after her statement came out that while the documents were fakes, they expressed the sentiment of Col Killian. There are a few things I just don’t get about what Ms. Knox said however --- or at least the part of the interview that CBS aired.

Knox made the statement that whoever produced the fake documents probably did this so they would be caught. How in the hell does THAT work? In what fantasy world do you "retype" documents for fear of being ID'ed.

Second --- in one spot of the interview (that CBS showed us) Knox said that Bush acted as if he "was above" everyone else and that the pressure received from Bush Sr.'s influence made it difficult to management the National Guard post. YET, in another segment of the piece, Knox says that Bush was "very gentlemanly" and she wondered 'what fine people the Bush family must be to produce such a son.' OK --- let me get this straight - Bush acted like he was "above everyone else" and the pressure from the Bush family influence made it nigh impossible to command ----- YET Bush came from fine family and was "very gentlemanly." Shortterm memory issues - Knox??

Third, the CBS spot doesn’t mention this for some reason but Knox is a long time Democrat who is one record as saying that Bush is ‘unfit for command’ - or some such. So - let's look at what we have - the partisans lining up – with the Killian family saying that Col Killian liked Bush and Knox saying he didn't. Fine. What they all agree on is that the documents are fakes. After hearing Knox’s statement to the Houston paper the other day CBS decided to make a call. Hence the Rather admission that these are probably faked documents ----- since Knox has already stated the obvious and indicated that they are forged National Guard docs. CBS and Rather can now line up with Knox on this issue. CBS is attempting to use Knox as a 'way out' after being exposed for what they are. A partisan tool.

 

[Robert Zaleski]

Dan Rather thinks you can be both a liar and an honest man. http://www.888webtoday.com/skousen5.html

 

[GENIERE]

CBS is following the lead of the NY Times; fiction is fact if it conforms to one’s opinion. The dramatic and rapid drop in the network’s ratings (reruns of “The Simpson’s” get better ratings in NYC) reflects the opinion of Joe Average.

 

[Dayle Record]

I conjecture that these files came from another intelligence agency that did use an expensive typewriter for data entry. I bet these files are files that were kept on Killian, and his reporting regarding George W Bush's service records. George's Dad was rather highly placed in the intelligence business at one time. I bet anyone that said squat about the family had huge verbatim files. Those files came to light, most likely, and no they don't look like the originals, because they aren't.

John Dubya, I repeated this as you asked.

Facts are, George W. Bush entered the Guard to avoid Viet Nam, and then avoided the Guard as well. These facts are indisputible. Socially well placed white men, frequently survive war in safe havens, while poor men, and men of color die heroe's deaths. Sometimes socially well placed white men distinguish themselves in time of war, as in the case of John Kerry, and many others. I think the ability to wage peace is the paramount qualification a president needs. And waging peace is what has to happen. The United States cannot behave like the Christian Borg, and expect the world to like it. Americans have the right to know the histories of their leaders, and George W. Bush's military records were destroyed. That is a crime, lest anyone forget.

 

[JohnDubYa]

John Dubya, I repeated this as you asked.

Thanks. And I was right... your logic makes no more sense the second time around.

Facts are, George W. Bush entered the Guard to avoid Viet Nam, and then avoided the Guard as well. These facts are indisputible.

Truth by Blatant Assertion. This level of Kindergarten logic may work on some people, but I'm not going to buy it. State your (ahem) "indisputible" proof.

Socially well placed white men, frequently survive war in safe havens, while poor men, and men of color die heroe's deaths.

If you listen carefully, you can hear the Battle Hymn of the Republic being hummed in the background.

Sometimes socially well placed white men distinguish themselves in time of war, as in the case of John Kerry, and many others. I think the ability to wage peace is the paramount qualification a president needs. And waging peace is what has to happen. The United States cannot behave like the Christian Borg, and expect the world to like it.

Holy cow, we're acting like Christian Borg? I had never thought of putting it that way. Now that I think of it, we are acting like Christian Borg. Well, this puts a new light on things. Maybe Bush has acted rash after all, just like Christian Borg would have. So what do we have to do so that we don't act like Christian Borg? And just who is Christian Borg?

Americans have the right to know the histories of their leaders, and George W. Bush's military records were destroyed. That is a crime, lest anyone forget.

Were the records destroyed by Christian Borg? If so, then he is truly a scoundrel, and I can see why we shouldn't act like Christian Borg.

 

[Gokul43201]

Woohoo, a right wing orgy, I see.

<don't mind me...I'm already gone>

 

[Dayle Record]

Kindergarden assertion? A matter of record, is not a kindergarden assertion. The military records of GW Bush were disappeared, then recently even more disappeared for good measure. That is a matter of public record.

Politics is never a nice discussion these days, unless it goes right along Republican Party Lines, then everyone is polite. If discussion strays from the speaking points, then it gets nasty.

Kindergarden assertion/Script Boy.

 

[FaverWillets]

Kindergarden assertion? A matter of record, is not a kindergarden assertion. The military records of GW Bush were disappeared, then recently even more disappeared for good measure. That is a matter of public record.

Politics is never a nice discussion these days, unless it goes right along Republican Party Lines, then everyone is polite. If discussion strays from the speaking points, then it gets nasty.

Kindergarden assertion/Script Boy.

Easy now... looks like someone pushed your buttons. It happened to me in this thread too. I apologized yesterday to the person I over reacted with. I have not seen a reply from him yet, so I won't know what he and others in this thread are really made of until the day is past. In the meantime I hope you step back and take a series of deep breaths and ask yourself, as I did, just what your intentions in this thread are? Are you trying to change their opinions to fit yours as I finally realized I was? Or, are you just angry like this all the time?

It is an established fact that this Presidential election is polarized. I prefer to avoid hanging around with people who see it my way exclusively. One cannot hope to grow much by staying almost exclusively in a familiar and friendly environment.

 

[FaverWillets]

Dan Rather thinks you can be both a liar and an honest man. http://www.888webtoday.com/skousen5.html

Maybe he should change his name to...say... Dan Janus Rather.

 

[Tigers2B1]

Below are links to one of the CBS docs, an exact copy of that CBS doc redone in MS WORD, and the last is a link to that CBS doc with the MS WORD doc overlaid. Note that faxing and photocopying may have caused some ‘blooming’ of the letters in the CBS doc which seem to appear again in the overlay.

The original suspect document from CBS

http://www.mirthless.org/forgery/aug-18-1973-memo.gif


The document retyped in MS WORD

http://www.mirthless.org/forgery/aug1873-pdf-word.gif


An overlay of the two – MS WORD over the CBS document


http://www.mirthless.org/forgery/aug1873-pdf-overlay.gif


You judge.

 

[kat]

Kindergarden assertion? A matter of record, is not a kindergarden assertion. The military records of GW Bush were disappeared, then recently even more disappeared for good measure. That is a matter of public record.
.

erm..."disapeared" and "even more disappeared" ? :tongue2:

Why don't we cut through the fustian charade and just get to the straight talking facts eh?

Facts are, George W. Bush entered the Guard to avoid Viet Nam, and then avoided the Guard as well.

Why don't you start with backing this up with facts...you know dates, records and links. Oh, and please...if you link to the Rathergate memo's expect to be heckled.

 

[Tigers2B1]

I conjecture that these files came from another intelligence agency that did use an expensive typewriter for data entry. I bet these files are files that were kept on Killian, and his reporting regarding George W Bush's service records. George's Dad was rather highly placed in the intelligence business at one time. I bet anyone that said squat about the family had huge verbatim files. Those files came to light, most likely, and no they don't look like the originals, because they aren't.

Damn Dayle, if I were a conspiracy theorist – I’d disown ya! Did you lose a bet or something?

 

[FaverWillets]

Judging from Rather statement last night, I suspect that Rather and CBS MIGHT be ready to 'begin' the long and winding admission process. But it will be a slow an painful process and I’m absolutly certain Rather and CBS will be looking for ways out all along the admission rollercoaster. IF Rather follows through and finally admits that these documents are very likely forgeries - Rather and CBS have no obligation to the person who intentionally mislead us and CBS. CBS should then give us that name.

If so it will be highly reminescent of Rush Limbaughs laughable "admission." People are stupid and corrupt on both sides of the fence.

 

[russ_watters]

According to a Washington Post (Dobbs) reporter today… the documents were faxed from “Kinkos” in Abilene, TX, 20 miles from the residence of Bill Burkett. Burkett left the Guards in 1998 and filed a lawsuit against them, but lost the suit. Since then he has been hospitalized for depression and has been a Bush and Guard “basher” ever since

That's an interesting twist. Probably unprovable, but interesting nonetheless.

 

[kat]

Another Coinkydink

http://www.1tex.net/demo/bcdw.htm

The speaker for our meeting on Monday, January 5th, will be Lavena Cheek, Taylor Country Tax Assessor Collector. Lavena will give a short talk on how we at the grassroots level can revitalize the Democratic Party in a positive manner.
The meeting will be at 7 p.m. at Kinko's on Danville just north of Buffalo Gap road in their meeting room. There are soda machines, etc. You're welcome to bring other refreshments if you like.

The room will cost us $5.00 per hour and we'll be requesting donations of $1.00 to help defray the cost. Any amount over the room cost will go into the club's general fund.

Please attend and bring a friend! And, think about clearing your schedule the weekend of February 20th for the TDW state convention in Austin! We'll have more information on that at the meeting!

 

[JohnDubYa]

Here is Limbaugh's admission. What is so laughable about it?

"You know I have always tried to be honest with you and open about my life. So I need to tell you today that part of what you have heard and read is correct. I am addicted to prescription pain medication. Immediately following this broadcast I will check myself into a treatment center for the next 30 days to once and for all break the hold that this highly addictive medication has on me."

I would accept something along those lines from Dan Rather. We're not going to get it.

 

[FaverWillets]

Here is Limbaugh's admission. What is so laughable about it?

"You know I have always tried to be honest with you and open about my life. So I need to tell you today that part of what you have heard and read is correct. I am addicted to prescription pain medication. Immediately following this broadcast I will check myself into a treatment center for the next 30 days to once and for all break the hold that this highly addictive medication has on me."

I would accept something along those lines from Dan Rather. We're not going to get it.

The quote from Rush was unnecessary. We are now discussing Dan Rather and I agree entirely with your last line, on both counts. Rush is another topic altogether.

"...I will check myself into a treatment center for the next 30 days..." How does Rush determine how long his treatment will take? I have been in a twelve step program, and the very audacity of this man to tell us that he is being honest when he is determining his treatment program, length of stay...etc...what a hypocrite and phony... for Limbaugh it never worked for me. For Rather...honestly I can't stand that guy anyway. I think I finally tuned out from him during the Egypt Air 880 air crash... long story, not worth the time and effort to type.

 

[FaverWillets]

Here is Limbaugh's admission. What is so laughable about it?

Try, everything. It was more of a dodge from the law and a desperate attempt to save his career than it was a true admission.

 

[russ_watters]

Well, CBS (Dan Rather) apologized, but stopped short of a retraction.
HERE it is:

We made a mistake in judgment, and for that I am sorry...

...It was an error that was made, however, in good faith and in the spirit of trying to carry on a CBS News tradition of investigative reporting without fear or favoritism...

...That, combined with some of the questions that have been raised in public and in the press, leads me to a point where — if I knew then what I know now — I would not have gone ahead with the story as it was aired, and I certainly would not have used the documents in question...

I am surprised that he even said that much.

 

[FaverWillets]

Well, CBS (Dan Rather) apologized, but stopped short of a retraction.
HERE it is: I am surprised that he even said that much.

It is a point of irony among many in this campaign that Dan Rather apologizes for documents that are in question but the information within them is said to be accurate. In a perfect world we might expect Bush to follow suit about Iraq...or the Swift Boat boys to follow suit about their own treachery. Incredibly one sided, this campaign.

 

[JohnDubYa]

It is a point of irony among many in this campaign that Dan Rather apologizes for documents that are in question but the information within them is said to be accurate. In a perfect world we might expect Bush to follow suit about Iraq...or the Swift Boat boys to follow suit about their own treachery. Incredibly one sided, this campaign.

One side has pay for their messages on their own. The other side gets Dan Rather and The Today Show to air theirs.

 

[FaverWillets]

One side has pay for their messages on their own. The other side gets Dan Rather and The Today Show to air theirs.

So, we have degrees of right and wrong then? Then you suggest that accountability is entirely a matter of political expediency?

Let's both assume for the moment that Rather and CBS acted on their own sans involvement by the Kerry camp, and that Swift-Boat did the same on their side. Is not wrong, wrong? Or is wrong sort of wrong so long as it supports an inflexible point of view?

 

[russ_watters]

Let's both assume for the moment that Rather and CBS acted on their own sans involvement by the Kerry camp, and that Swift-Boat did the same on their side. Is not wrong, wrong? Or is wrong sort of wrong so long as it supports an inflexible point of view?

If each entity (CBS and SBV) acted on its own not in cahoots with either campaign, why should either campaign comment on either issue? Or are you suggesting in your last post that CBS is part of the Kerry campaign, so an apology by CBS should be considered an apology by Kerry and the Bush campaign should follow suit? Since I doubt you really mean to say that, the comparison is specious.

In any case, the Iraq info is a separate issue entirely.