Dealing with creepy students as a TA

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In summary: You seem to be very worried about being a "nice person" rather than being a professional.In summary, the conversation revolves around a TA who is facing inappropriate behavior from a student in the class she teaches. The student has been sending her inappropriate text messages and making uncomfortable advances towards her. The TA is unsure of how to handle the situation and is reluctant to report the student for sexual harassment. Other teachers recommend reporting the student and being assertive with him to protect her own credibility and avoid any potential future issues.
  • #36
micromass said:
That seems very unprofessional. He has no way of knowing you'll never see him again, certainly if he sent you text messages.

Yes... yes it was. I also know never to get that professor involved in anything serious ever again.
 
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  • #37
samnorris93 said:
Yes... yes it was. I also know never to get that professor involved in anything serious ever again.

Please do my a favor. If the student in questions tries anything again, report him immediately to the correct authorities and not to your professor.
 
  • #38
That said, I also found it quite weird that you had to send your student an email. If I were the professor, I wouldn't ask this of you. I would send the email myself.
 
  • #39
micromass said:
That said, I also found it quite weird that you had to send your student an email. If I were the professor, I wouldn't ask this of you. I would send the email myself.

This was the idea of the chair. He said that if he were to contact the student himself, it would no longer be an "advisory" meeting, and he would be required to report the incident.
 
  • #40
The problem with claiming we have a "hang him now" attitude is that you're assuming that reporting an incident will result in completely ruining the student's life. Reporting him is merely getting the process started. The people who deal with this sort of issue know how to respond appropriately. If it was the guy's first offense, someone probably would have just sat down with him and educated him about boundaries and what constitutes sexual harassment; they wouldn't expel the guy.

Frankly, I'm surprised by your professor's response and somewhat with the department chair's (depending on the level of detail you provided). At one of the schools I work at, it was made very clear that we're under a legal obligation to report any incident, regardless of whether the student wants us to or not, if the student divulges enough information. Indeed, if we suspect a student is about to tell us about an incident, we're supposed to interrupt and inform him or her about our obligation to report. Not reporting an incident could get an employee in legal trouble.
 
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  • #41
I did some research on the whole reporting mechanism at my university before I talked to my professor. The people who are required to report any incidents are the department chair, RSO advisers, and faculty advisers, along with a bunch of other people. That includes a lot of people in the department, but not the professor I talked to.

But yes, any further harassment from the guy, and he will definitely be reported. That's all there is to it.
 
  • #42
Right, and you told the department chair, so he should report it.

I'm very disappointed in the unprofessional way that your professor and the chair handled things. The chair had a duty to report and neglected it. Furthermore, they let you send the email, because otherwise the chair could get in trouble for not reporting. This is absolutely horrible.
 
  • #43
How is that horrible? Stopping the harassment was the end goal, nothing else. That goal is achieved. Yes, the way that they handled it was unprofessional, and yes I feel absolutely stupid because the conversation with the chair and the professor wasn't at all how I wanted the conversation to go. I started the issue on the "please don't kill the poor guy" side of the fence, and ended up trying to convince the chair that it was, in fact, a serious issue. So after the whole conversation, I do feel like I took it too far (though I didn't), but again, the end goal was achieved.
 
  • #44
Well, it does depend on what Sam told the chair. If she simply said, "There's a guy in one of my classes who creeps me out because blah blah blah," but never identified the student, I don't think the chair has the obligation to report the incident. I kinda figure that's what happened and why he said that if he were to send the e-mail, he'd have to report it because then he'd know who the student was.
 
  • #45
I sincerely hope the harassment stops now, and if it does, then yes the end goal is reached. But the way they handled it was horrible and amateurish. You having to convince them that the issue is serious. Really? I can't think of a more horrible way to handle things, even though you did get what you want.
 
  • #46
vela said:
Well, it does depend on what Sam told the chair. If she simply said, "There's a guy in one of my classes who creeps me out because blah blah blah," but never identified the student, I don't think the chair has the obligation to report the incident. I kinda figure that's what happened and why he said that if he were to send the e-mail, he'd have to report it because then he'd know who the student was.

They did ask me the name of the student, and I did tell them. I think the reason he couldn't officially get involved was because then it would cross the line between me going to him for advice and me going to him to do something about it.
 
  • #47
For the record, I don't want them to "hang" the guy. It might indeed be that he's a bit naive or a bit awkward. But you don't know the full truth. Maybe he does this to a lot of people? If nobody reports him, then he can just continue harassing more women.

It's a very sad how many males take these kind of complaints not seriously. This is really a huge problem. Imagine if your professor (or the chair) were a woman. You would very likely get a much better treatment. Of course, many males would also take it very seriously, but there are some people (like the two you talked to) who completely botched the job.

But yes, you did get the end result, which is good for you. I just can't help thinking of all the other women who don't get their end result because of things like this.
 
  • #48
micromass said:
I sincerely hope the harassment stops now, and if it does, then yes the end goal is reached. But the way they handled it was horrible and amateurish. You having to convince them that the issue is serious. Really? I can't think of a more horrible way to handle things, even though you did get what you want.

Well, in theory, I should've laid out everything that he did at the beginning of the meeting. In practice, they kept asking me questions, and after I answered them, they would discuss among themselves about how serious it was. For instance, they asked me how he was embarrassing me in front of the class, and I said that he would ask me personal questions. For instance, I said, last week he asked me when my boyfriend and I were breaking up (I'm single, but that's irrelevant). My professor responded that that wasn't really a personal question, and the chair said that it depended on the context and confirmed that it was definitely creepy after I said he asked me some form of that question week after week.

When I mentioned that he would complete his lab, and then return near the end of class so that he could walk out with me, they again said that that's creepy, and asked what time my lab finished. I said 6:00, which wasn't nearly as creepy as if it were 9:00 (since the other section goes from 6-9), they said.

I also mentioned that his RA (a friend of mine) had a similar issue with him, so it clearly wasn't just a "me" thing, but that he's just a creepy guy. The chair responded that if he reported him, he could possibly prevent him from harassing another authority figure. The professor also offered to talk to the guy.

The more I read the synopsis of the conversation... the more I realized that they really did screw up. Lol.
 
  • #49
Hmm yea, they screwed up. I don't think it is really their job to decide how serious it is. And sadly, males have a very different perspective on the situation than women.

And really, how is "Are you and your boyfriend breaking up" in any way not a personal question? And what does it matter what the time was that the lab was finished? Sure, I would find it more creepy if a creepy guy was following me at 9:00 than if he was following me at 6:00. But it objectively doesn't matter.

I think they should have been very firm from the moment you mentioned that somebody else had a problem with him. If it was questionable what to do before you mentioned it, it should have been very clear after.

Well, I guess you really learned something: don't go to those two guys with problems...
 
  • #50
Well, to be fair, there is only one female faculty member in the department, and I have no doubt that her reaction to the situation would've been far worse than the two guys. So I really didn't have an option but to talk to a guy.
 
  • #51
Well, it does sound a bit strange to me, but your school may handle incidents like these differently. Or it could be your department chair screwed up.

I agree with micromass that the professor and department chair did handled it poorly. That you felt you had to convince them this was a serious issue is absolutely terrible. You thought about the issue a lot before bringing it to them; you asked for advice here; and you researched what reporting involved. You didn't want to get the guy in trouble, but he creeped you out enough that you determined you needed to discuss the issue up with them. That alone should have been enough for them to take it seriously. Instead, they both act like it's a non-problem. This is exactly the kind of dismissive attitude that makes women reluctant to come forward and just put up with crap when they shouldn't have to.
 
  • #52
I'm not really so sure that it's a male vs. female issue.
 
  • #53
samnorris93 said:
I'm not really so sure that it's a male vs. female issue.

Maybe not. There might be males that treat this situation appropriately, and there might be females who deal with it in a horrible way. But I think that on average, the women would deal with it better than the men. It's just a speculation of my part, I have no evidence at all.
 
  • #54
samnorris93 said:
Sorry guys, I know I keep posting here about issues I'm having as a TA even though I'm not a full-on teacher like most of you guys are, but on my last thread you guys were very helpful.

So, here's the situation that I'm having issues with. Last semester there was this guy in the class I was a TA for. He seemed to be a little... overly personal. He'd come up to ask me a question and he'd put his arm around me. I'd move away and tell him to stop, and that would be the end of that. I never thought too much about it, until this semester when I became his TA again (I TA both Physics I and Physics II). It started out with a very inappropriate text message, asking for a "booty call", and telling me I was sexy. How he got my number, I'll never know. I didn't know it was him until the following lab, when he asked me if I would ever consider dating a nerd. I told him I was (I'm in a relationship), and he told me to let him know if I ever break up with him. He keeps asking me week after week if we've broken up yet. After lab, he waits until everyone else has left, and then walks me down the hall back to the TA room. He's the first to volunteer every time I want to do a demonstration or anything.

I put up with it for about 2 weeks, and then I asked the secretary if I could request that he moves sections (there are two, I only TA one). I was told that in order to officially request that, I'd have to file sexual harassment charges. Now, I don't really feel like I'm being harassed (he's not physically threatening me or anything), and it just doesn't feel worth it. I'm not about to ruin the kid's future just because I'm uncomfortable around him in lab.

Thoughts? Remarks?

Please don't think I'm trying to justify the behavior, but it sounds a bit like the guy's got issues that go a little deeper than plain old disrespect. I've heard a lot of "creepy guy" stories from my female friends that follow this pattern and a common theme seems to be that the issue of the creeper in question isn't so much that he's plain hostile or predatory but more that he doesn't know any better, with a slight overtone of ASD-related problems. There's creepy guys that are overly forward or aggressive (ie "douchebag"), and there's creepy guys that are just desperate because they don't know how to function socially, especially with women.

So I wouldn't necessarily disagree if you decided to go to the police or some other disciplinarian, but I think the guy isn't beyond helping. If you're worried about "ruining his future", have you considered reporting his behavior to a counselor or someone who can talk to him in a non-disciplinary capacity about his behavior? Dealing with those issues productively will get him off your back, and it will also help him resolve his issues (and, by extension, help the other females he will encounter in his life).
 
  • #55
Oh yeah, definitely. Judging from his response to my e-mail, he just didn't know that he came off a little weird. I understand that.
 
  • #56
samnorris93 said:
Judging from his response to my e-mail, he just didn't know that he came off a little weird. I understand that.

But that is not your problem. I don't know how old this guy is, but since he is at university I'd assume he is -at least from a legal point of view- an adult. The "he did not know better" defense might be relevant if you were talking about someone who is 13 years old, but by the time you get to university you should know better; if he doesn't then that is serious and someone should intervene because otherwise he will just keep doing it. I agree with the others that your line managers (which is what they are in this case) handled this very badly; perhaps to the point where THEY could get into trouble if this ever went further.
The "it was just a joke" or "I did not realize you took it seriously" arguments are exactly the reason for why sexual harassment legislation in many countries is formulated in such a way that what matters is how the victim perceives the situation, NOT what the intention was: i.e. it is illegal even if he did not realize that he was harassing you (I am not sure if this is true in the USA are well).
 
  • #57
I have to add that I'm sure how anyone was trying to "hang him high". In situations of harassment like this, the harassment should be reported to the "manager" and dealt with. How could that possibly not be the proper response? No one that I saw said to pursue his prosecution to the fullest extent of the law or anything.
 
  • #58
f95toli said:
The "it was just a joke" or "I did not realize you took it seriously" arguments are exactly the reason for why sexual harassment legislation in many countries is formulated in such a way that what matters is how the victim perceives the situation, NOT what the intention was: i.e. it is illegal even if he did not realize that he was harassing you (I am not sure if this is true in the USA are well).

However, as I explained to the professor and chair, the issue is not that I felt uncomfortable. As I said to them, to be honest I would not consider getting anyone else involved unless I legitimately feared for my safety if it were just one on one. The main issue is he was embarrassing me in front of my class, and I was a less effective TA because of it.
 
  • #59
Does this happen often in universities?
 
  • #60
HomogenousCow said:
Does this happen often in universities?
Sexual harrassment? Unfortunately yes.

I would expect that student-to-TA harrassement is much less common than student-to-student harassment. I'm sure this is not an isolated case though.
 
  • #61
Choppy said:
Sexual harrassment? Unfortunately yes.

I would expect that student-to-TA harrassement is much less common than student-to-student harassment. I'm sure this is not an isolated case though.
Don't you mean _allegations_ of sexual harassment? Shouldn't we hear both sides first before making a final judgment? Isnt a false positive as bad as false negative? Shouldn't a jury/committee be the one to determine if harassment actually took place? Until then, it is a matter of allegations. Frankly, if we are honest with ourselves an observe our own conduct, we will admit we all have done stupid , thoughtless things. Wouldn't we want to be given first a fair chance, without taking things to the level of threats, to address our own stupidity? And for the accusation of male ineptitude, I can bring up allegations of rape/harassment that turned out to be clearly false, that were supported by the far-out feminist groups.
I don't mean to imply that samnorris93 is lying , but out of basic fairness, we should wait until both sides are laid out before making a final judgement. Samnorris93 has been more reasonable and flexible than many here.

EDIT 1,2: Maybe most of us ( including myself) would benefit from reading the book "Crucial Conversations" (or related) on how to address touchy, emotionally charged situations effectively. I am not preaching here, I am reading it myself because I could definitely improve in this area.
 
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  • #62
WWGD said:
I don't mean to imply that samnorris93 is lying , but

"but"? I see.
 
  • #63
Vanadium 50 said:
"but"? I see.
?

I do see that you do not make allowances for the fact that you may have misunderstood my response.
So much for that. Just spell out whatever it is you're trying to say. If you believe I am actually saying
she is lying, then explain just how that follows from my post. Otherwise, you are making unfounded
accusations.
 
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  • #64
WWGD said:
?

I do see that you do not make allowances for the fact that you may have misunderstood my response.
So much for that. Just spell out whatever it is you're trying to say.

These things are a nightmare to discuss, it's like global warming and euthanasia.
The point is that sometimes the allegations are true and other times they are not, you never know the full story and should refrain from treating the situation with such zeal.
 
  • #65
HomogenousCow said:
These things are a nightmare to discuss, it's like global warming and euthanasia.
The point is that sometimes the allegations are true and other times they are not, you never know the full story and should refrain from treating the situation with such zeal.
I am not treating the situation itself, I am addressing the innuendo by Vanadium 50, who is accusing me of something, just not explicitly.
 
  • #66
When you say "I am not accusing someone of something, but..." it's a transparently backhanded way of accusing them. Samnorris93 deserves better.
 
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  • #67
Honestly, I would have been very concerned had they just taken my word for it. In a case like this, nothing should be done without proof. In my case, I have no doubt that other students would have backed me up if it were to come to that, and fortunately it didn't.
 
  • #68
Yes, but you had the text messages, right?
 
  • #69
WWGD said:
Don't you mean _allegations_ of sexual harassment? Shouldn't we hear both sides first before making a final judgment? Isnt a false positive as bad as false negative? Shouldn't a jury/committee be the one to determine if harassment actually took place?
Actually, I was asking a question to Homogenous Cow. I did not know if his or her question pertained to sexual harassment in general, specific sexual harassment of TAs, TAs wondering how to deal with creepy students, or what. That's why I used a question mark.

That said, it's important to remember that this thread was started by someone who came on requesting advice on how to deal with a specific situation.

If someone came into the academic guidance forum and stated that they were struggling to pass a certain class, most readers would not automatically assume that they are "alleged" to be struggling or that they need to hear the instructor's side of the story before they respond with any advice. That's because they're not passing out final judgement on the people involved. They are responding to a request for assistance with a problem.

And often the response pertains to more than just the specific individual asking the question. This thread has well over 2000 views at the moment. How many students or first time instructors might actually be in a similar circumstance and browsing the web for advice on how to deal with it? I have no idea, but I suspect over the lifetime of this thread it will be more than zero.

And for the accusation of male ineptitude, I can bring up allegations of rape/harassment that turned out to be clearly false, that were supported by the far-out feminist groups.
One of the major issues in facing the social problem of sexual assault is that it's actually quite common for people to believe that the survivor is lying. This is compounded by the facts that (i) sexual assault can be very difficult to prove since the argument often boils down to a he-said-she-said fiasco, (ii) reporting the assault often involves disclosing private and intimate details about oneself that most people would rather not share, (iii) victim-blaming reactions are quite common - why did she drink so much to begin with?, why was she dressed like that?, it wasn't like she was on her way home from a nunnery, why did he go to a gay bar alone? and (iv) it's a lot easier to believe that the survivor is lying than it is to do something about it. Unfortunately as a result of all this, it's not uncommon for accusations to be withdrawn.

Similar issues can be faced with sexual harassment.

I don't mean to say that no one ever lies about assaults or harassment. Of course it happens. And in any circumstance where someone is going to face a penalty - either civil, criminal or through academic discipline - of course those doling it out need to hear both sides of the story.

I don't mean to imply that samnorris93 is lying , but out of basic fairness, we should wait until both sides are laid out before making a final judgement.
Are you expecting the student in question to come into this thread and argue his side of the story?
 
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  • #70
Vanadium 50 said:
Yes, but you had the text messages, right?

Yes, of course. Though, again, no way to prove it was from him. Which was another reason why, given the potential severity of the consequences, we decided to not report him.
 
<h2>1. How can I handle a student who consistently makes inappropriate comments or gestures?</h2><p>It is important to address this behavior immediately and directly. Speak to the student privately and explain that their behavior is not acceptable and will not be tolerated. Document the incident and inform your supervisor if the behavior continues.</p><h2>2. What should I do if a student makes me feel uncomfortable?</h2><p>Trust your instincts and remove yourself from the situation if necessary. Talk to your supervisor about the behavior and document any incidents. It is also important to set boundaries with the student and maintain a professional relationship.</p><h2>3. How can I handle a student who constantly interrupts or talks over me during class?</h2><p>It is important to establish clear expectations for classroom behavior at the beginning of the semester. If a student continues to interrupt, calmly remind them of the expectations and ask them to wait their turn to speak. If the behavior persists, speak to your supervisor for further guidance.</p><h2>4. What should I do if a student is overly friendly and tries to cross personal boundaries?</h2><p>It is important to maintain a professional relationship with students at all times. Set clear boundaries and redirect the conversation back to the academic material. If the behavior continues, speak to your supervisor and document any incidents.</p><h2>5. How can I handle a student who is consistently disruptive or disrespectful in class?</h2><p>It is important to address this behavior immediately and directly. Speak to the student privately and explain how their behavior is affecting the class and their own learning. If the behavior continues, involve your supervisor and document any incidents. It may also be helpful to involve the student's academic advisor or department chair. </p>

1. How can I handle a student who consistently makes inappropriate comments or gestures?

It is important to address this behavior immediately and directly. Speak to the student privately and explain that their behavior is not acceptable and will not be tolerated. Document the incident and inform your supervisor if the behavior continues.

2. What should I do if a student makes me feel uncomfortable?

Trust your instincts and remove yourself from the situation if necessary. Talk to your supervisor about the behavior and document any incidents. It is also important to set boundaries with the student and maintain a professional relationship.

3. How can I handle a student who constantly interrupts or talks over me during class?

It is important to establish clear expectations for classroom behavior at the beginning of the semester. If a student continues to interrupt, calmly remind them of the expectations and ask them to wait their turn to speak. If the behavior persists, speak to your supervisor for further guidance.

4. What should I do if a student is overly friendly and tries to cross personal boundaries?

It is important to maintain a professional relationship with students at all times. Set clear boundaries and redirect the conversation back to the academic material. If the behavior continues, speak to your supervisor and document any incidents.

5. How can I handle a student who is consistently disruptive or disrespectful in class?

It is important to address this behavior immediately and directly. Speak to the student privately and explain how their behavior is affecting the class and their own learning. If the behavior continues, involve your supervisor and document any incidents. It may also be helpful to involve the student's academic advisor or department chair.

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