Dealing with creepy students as a TA

[MidgetDwarf]

That was probably the best course of action in my opinion. I received many attacks due to my post on this thread. Everyone failed to realize, except Greg and a few others, that by reasoning in a language the student understands, would stop the problem. If anything I lost a lot of respect for fellow physicsforum members. Physics forum is a place where the members use logic and reasoning to help others. The hang him now attitude is this thread is despicable.

Posters forgot to understand that individuals rationalize situations differently. The student was an idiot I admit that. However, he and the OP have learned a valuable lesson.

His Casanova attitude if not changed will ruin his future. The OP on the other hand, has learned to a a address the situation instantaneous and not wait till more complications arise.I will mention one thing tho. The department chair also had a hidden agenda in this fiasco. By law he is required to submit all records of criminal behavior (including harrasement) yearly. This information becomes public record. If this incident were to go on the record it may make others think twice of attending said college. Which in turn, leads to lost revenue for the school.

 

[ZapperZ]

That was probably the best course of action in my opinion. I received many attacks due to my post on this thread. Everyone failed to realize, except Greg and a few others, that by reasoning in a language the student understands, would stop the problem. If anything I lost a lot of respect for fellow physicsforum members. Physics forum is a place where the members use logic and reasoning to help others. The hang him now attitude is this thread is despicable.

No, I think you have misunderstood many of the responses. In my case, it was the urge to stop contacting the student and contact a figure of authority! It is only upon discussion with such authority that the NEXT agreed-upon step should be taken, and in this case, to contact the student directly and informed him of the possible consequences! If it happens that everyone agreed that it should be reported to the next level, then THAT should have been done instead.

The point here is that it had to be reported to someone, since she hadn't reacted to this incident that well in the first place! There needed to be another party involved here to help her evaluate the NEXT step. Furthermore, at the very least, someone else is aware of what she is going through. I can bet you that both her Advisor and the Chair will keep an eye out on her and this individual from now on. If anything happens to her, they both have a LOT of explaining to do. She also now knows that she has someone to seek help from and that she is not alone in dealing with this. For someone who had been harassed, this is an extremely valuable and possibly comforting knowledge.

The intention was NOT on the harasser. The intention was for the harassed to seek help. She did, and she got an advice on what to do next. That was it.

Zz.

 

[atyy]

I probably should've done that. Oh well. The student already e-mailed me back and apologized profusely, so it seems like it won't be an issue anymore. I'm just really fortunate that even though the chair is technically required to create an incident report, he was more willing to settle the issue without all the paperwork and whatnot.

You should also keep the chair informed, not just Physics Forums.

 

[Dishsoap]

Yes, I am going to keep the chair and my professor informed.

The weirdest thing about the whole circumstance is the difference between how you guys responded and how my professor responded initially. You guys had a "hang him now" attitude as referenced earlier, but my professor was on the opposite side of the fence. When I first told him, he said "Well, you only have 2 more months of this semester right, and then you never have to see him again? Just deal with it, right?" Though I expected him to be chill about the whole thing (this professor is the king of sexual/offensive jokes), I certainly expected more than that, so I pushed him a little bit more, and then we got the chair involved.

Overall, I just feel stupid about the whole thing. If all it took was an e-mail to the guy threatening administrative option, I could've done that on my own. If I would've known that the chair of the department wasn't going to rain down fire and brimstone, I would've left my professor out of it.

So yes, I did learn a lot of valuable lessons. Mostly that I have no reason to be afraid of reporting an incident like that.

 

[micromass]

When I first told him, he said "Well, you only have 2 more months of this semester right, and then you never have to see him again? Just deal with it, right?"

That seems very unprofessional. He has no way of knowing you'll never see him again, certainly if he sent you text messages.

 

[Dishsoap]

That seems very unprofessional. He has no way of knowing you'll never see him again, certainly if he sent you text messages.

Yes... yes it was. I also know never to get that professor involved in anything serious ever again.

 

[micromass]

Yes... yes it was. I also know never to get that professor involved in anything serious ever again.

Please do my a favor. If the student in questions tries anything again, report him immediately to the correct authorities and not to your professor.

 

[micromass]

That said, I also found it quite weird that you had to send your student an email. If I were the professor, I wouldn't ask this of you. I would send the email myself.

 

[Dishsoap]

That said, I also found it quite weird that you had to send your student an email. If I were the professor, I wouldn't ask this of you. I would send the email myself.

This was the idea of the chair. He said that if he were to contact the student himself, it would no longer be an "advisory" meeting, and he would be required to report the incident.

 

[vela]

The problem with claiming we have a "hang him now" attitude is that you're assuming that reporting an incident will result in completely ruining the student's life. Reporting him is merely getting the process started. The people who deal with this sort of issue know how to respond appropriately. If it was the guy's first offense, someone probably would have just sat down with him and educated him about boundaries and what constitutes sexual harassment; they wouldn't expel the guy.

Frankly, I'm surprised by your professor's response and somewhat with the department chair's (depending on the level of detail you provided). At one of the schools I work at, it was made very clear that we're under a legal obligation to report any incident, regardless of whether the student wants us to or not, if the student divulges enough information. Indeed, if we suspect a student is about to tell us about an incident, we're supposed to interrupt and inform him or her about our obligation to report. Not reporting an incident could get an employee in legal trouble.

 

[Dishsoap]

I did some research on the whole reporting mechanism at my university before I talked to my professor. The people who are required to report any incidents are the department chair, RSO advisers, and faculty advisers, along with a bunch of other people. That includes a lot of people in the department, but not the professor I talked to.

But yes, any further harassment from the guy, and he will definitely be reported. That's all there is to it.

 

[micromass]

Right, and you told the department chair, so he should report it.

I'm very disappointed in the unprofessional way that your professor and the chair handled things. The chair had a duty to report and neglected it. Furthermore, they let you send the email, because otherwise the chair could get in trouble for not reporting. This is absolutely horrible.

 

[Dishsoap]

How is that horrible? Stopping the harassment was the end goal, nothing else. That goal is achieved. Yes, the way that they handled it was unprofessional, and yes I feel absolutely stupid because the conversation with the chair and the professor wasn't at all how I wanted the conversation to go. I started the issue on the "please don't kill the poor guy" side of the fence, and ended up trying to convince the chair that it was, in fact, a serious issue. So after the whole conversation, I do feel like I took it too far (though I didn't), but again, the end goal was achieved.

 

[vela]

Well, it does depend on what Sam told the chair. If she simply said, "There's a guy in one of my classes who creeps me out because blah blah blah," but never identified the student, I don't think the chair has the obligation to report the incident. I kinda figure that's what happened and why he said that if he were to send the e-mail, he'd have to report it because then he'd know who the student was.

 

[micromass]

I sincerely hope the harassment stops now, and if it does, then yes the end goal is reached. But the way they handled it was horrible and amateurish. You having to convince them that the issue is serious. Really? I can't think of a more horrible way to handle things, even though you did get what you want.

 

[Dishsoap]

Well, it does depend on what Sam told the chair. If she simply said, "There's a guy in one of my classes who creeps me out because blah blah blah," but never identified the student, I don't think the chair has the obligation to report the incident. I kinda figure that's what happened and why he said that if he were to send the e-mail, he'd have to report it because then he'd know who the student was.

They did ask me the name of the student, and I did tell them. I think the reason he couldn't officially get involved was because then it would cross the line between me going to him for advice and me going to him to do something about it.

 

[micromass]

For the record, I don't want them to "hang" the guy. It might indeed be that he's a bit naive or a bit awkward. But you don't know the full truth. Maybe he does this to a lot of people? If nobody reports him, then he can just continue harassing more women.

It's a very sad how many males take these kind of complaints not seriously. This is really a huge problem. Imagine if your professor (or the chair) were a woman. You would very likely get a much better treatment. Of course, many males would also take it very seriously, but there are some people (like the two you talked to) who completely botched the job.

But yes, you did get the end result, which is good for you. I just can't help thinking of all the other women who don't get their end result because of things like this.

 

[Dishsoap]

I sincerely hope the harassment stops now, and if it does, then yes the end goal is reached. But the way they handled it was horrible and amateurish. You having to convince them that the issue is serious. Really? I can't think of a more horrible way to handle things, even though you did get what you want.

Well, in theory, I should've laid out everything that he did at the beginning of the meeting. In practice, they kept asking me questions, and after I answered them, they would discuss among themselves about how serious it was. For instance, they asked me how he was embarrassing me in front of the class, and I said that he would ask me personal questions. For instance, I said, last week he asked me when my boyfriend and I were breaking up (I'm single, but that's irrelevant). My professor responded that that wasn't really a personal question, and the chair said that it depended on the context and confirmed that it was definitely creepy after I said he asked me some form of that question week after week.

When I mentioned that he would complete his lab, and then return near the end of class so that he could walk out with me, they again said that that's creepy, and asked what time my lab finished. I said 6:00, which wasn't nearly as creepy as if it were 9:00 (since the other section goes from 6-9), they said.

I also mentioned that his RA (a friend of mine) had a similar issue with him, so it clearly wasn't just a "me" thing, but that he's just a creepy guy. The chair responded that if he reported him, he could possibly prevent him from harassing another authority figure. The professor also offered to talk to the guy.

The more I read the synopsis of the conversation... the more I realized that they really did screw up. Lol.

 

[micromass]

Hmm yea, they screwed up. I don't think it is really their job to decide how serious it is. And sadly, males have a very different perspective on the situation than women.

And really, how is "Are you and your boyfriend breaking up" in any way not a personal question? And what does it matter what the time was that the lab was finished? Sure, I would find it more creepy if a creepy guy was following me at 9:00 than if he was following me at 6:00. But it objectively doesn't matter.

I think they should have been very firm from the moment you mentioned that somebody else had a problem with him. If it was questionable what to do before you mentioned it, it should have been very clear after.

Well, I guess you really learned something: don't go to those two guys with problems...

 

[Dishsoap]

Well, to be fair, there is only one female faculty member in the department, and I have no doubt that her reaction to the situation would've been far worse than the two guys. So I really didn't have an option but to talk to a guy.

 

[vela]

Well, it does sound a bit strange to me, but your school may handle incidents like these differently. Or it could be your department chair screwed up.

I agree with micromass that the professor and department chair did handled it poorly. That you felt you had to convince them this was a serious issue is absolutely terrible. You thought about the issue a lot before bringing it to them; you asked for advice here; and you researched what reporting involved. You didn't want to get the guy in trouble, but he creeped you out enough that you determined you needed to discuss the issue up with them. That alone should have been enough for them to take it seriously. Instead, they both act like it's a non-problem. This is exactly the kind of dismissive attitude that makes women reluctant to come forward and just put up with crap when they shouldn't have to.

 

[Dishsoap]

I'm not really so sure that it's a male vs. female issue.

 

[micromass]

I'm not really so sure that it's a male vs. female issue.

Maybe not. There might be males that treat this situation appropriately, and there might be females who deal with it in a horrible way. But I think that on average, the women would deal with it better than the men. It's just a speculation of my part, I have no evidence at all.

 

[jack476]

Sorry guys, I know I keep posting here about issues I'm having as a TA even though I'm not a full-on teacher like most of you guys are, but on my last thread you guys were very helpful.

So, here's the situation that I'm having issues with. Last semester there was this guy in the class I was a TA for. He seemed to be a little... overly personal. He'd come up to ask me a question and he'd put his arm around me. I'd move away and tell him to stop, and that would be the end of that. I never thought too much about it, until this semester when I became his TA again (I TA both Physics I and Physics II). It started out with a very inappropriate text message, asking for a "booty call", and telling me I was sexy. How he got my number, I'll never know. I didn't know it was him until the following lab, when he asked me if I would ever consider dating a nerd. I told him I was (I'm in a relationship), and he told me to let him know if I ever break up with him. He keeps asking me week after week if we've broken up yet. After lab, he waits until everyone else has left, and then walks me down the hall back to the TA room. He's the first to volunteer every time I want to do a demonstration or anything.

I put up with it for about 2 weeks, and then I asked the secretary if I could request that he moves sections (there are two, I only TA one). I was told that in order to officially request that, I'd have to file sexual harassment charges. Now, I don't really feel like I'm being harassed (he's not physically threatening me or anything), and it just doesn't feel worth it. I'm not about to ruin the kid's future just because I'm uncomfortable around him in lab.

Thoughts? Remarks?

Please don't think I'm trying to justify the behavior, but it sounds a bit like the guy's got issues that go a little deeper than plain old disrespect. I've heard a lot of "creepy guy" stories from my female friends that follow this pattern and a common theme seems to be that the issue of the creeper in question isn't so much that he's plain hostile or predatory but more that he doesn't know any better, with a slight overtone of ASD-related problems. There's creepy guys that are overly forward or aggressive (ie "douchebag"), and there's creepy guys that are just desperate because they don't know how to function socially, especially with women.

So I wouldn't necessarily disagree if you decided to go to the police or some other disciplinarian, but I think the guy isn't beyond helping. If you're worried about "ruining his future", have you considered reporting his behavior to a counselor or someone who can talk to him in a non-disciplinary capacity about his behavior? Dealing with those issues productively will get him off your back, and it will also help him resolve his issues (and, by extension, help the other females he will encounter in his life).

 

[Dishsoap]

Oh yeah, definitely. Judging from his response to my e-mail, he just didn't know that he came off a little weird. I understand that.

 

[f95toli]

Judging from his response to my e-mail, he just didn't know that he came off a little weird. I understand that.

But that is not your problem. I don't know how old this guy is, but since he is at university I'd assume he is -at least from a legal point of view- an adult. The "he did not know better" defense might be relevant if you were talking about someone who is 13 years old, but by the time you get to university you should know better; if he doesn't then that is serious and someone should intervene because otherwise he will just keep doing it. I agree with the others that your line managers (which is what they are in this case) handled this very badly; perhaps to the point where THEY could get into trouble if this ever went further.
The "it was just a joke" or "I did not realize you took it seriously" arguments are exactly the reason for why sexual harassment legislation in many countries is formulated in such a way that what matters is how the victim perceives the situation, NOT what the intention was: i.e. it is illegal even if he did not realize that he was harassing you (I am not sure if this is true in the USA are well).

 

[TheGeometrist]

I have to add that I'm sure how anyone was trying to "hang him high". In situations of harassment like this, the harassment should be reported to the "manager" and dealt with. How could that possibly not be the proper response? No one that I saw said to pursue his prosecution to the fullest extent of the law or anything.

 

[Dishsoap]

The "it was just a joke" or "I did not realize you took it seriously" arguments are exactly the reason for why sexual harassment legislation in many countries is formulated in such a way that what matters is how the victim perceives the situation, NOT what the intention was: i.e. it is illegal even if he did not realize that he was harassing you (I am not sure if this is true in the USA are well).

However, as I explained to the professor and chair, the issue is not that I felt uncomfortable. As I said to them, to be honest I would not consider getting anyone else involved unless I legitimately feared for my safety if it were just one on one. The main issue is he was embarrassing me in front of my class, and I was a less effective TA because of it.

 

[HomogenousCow]

Does this happen often in universities?

 

[Choppy]

Does this happen often in universities?

Sexual harrassment? Unfortunately yes.

I would expect that student-to-TA harrassement is much less common than student-to-student harassment. I'm sure this is not an isolated case though.